If you dont think we should be in Afghanistan, maybe you should be worried about this

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

You know what. These radical groups have no purpose what so ever on this planet. They need to be eradicated. Now, you can define eradication how ever you like. They can be asimilated into their culture and the conditions that bring about these radical ideas can be tackled. Or you can drop a bomb on their house, what ever you think is the right way. But the fact remains they are pure evil and should not be allowed to remain on this planet.

Define radical groups please - maybe a list and why you would consider them "pure evil".

[Igottago]

In regards to the topic, yes, England has serious problems with Islamic fundamentalists within their own borders. And could the same thing happen in Canada? Absolutely. Sadly, things like this are becoming a new reality in the world, and I think as Canadians we are sometimes naive that it could happen to us.

Should we be in Afghanistan? I believe we should be, but..Where I see the problem is that America basically forgot Afghanistan and went into Iraq before they finished the job. Afghanistan was the right move, Iraq was the wrong move, now we have less support in Afghanistan, and Bin Laden is still nowhere to be found.

[evman150]

Originally Posted by White Doors

ahhhhh...

Great post. Lots of content. Maybe you should check out this link.

http://forum.calgaryflames.com/

Actually say something telling me why you disagree rather than blithering like a moron.

[Flashpoint]

In an attempt to get back on topic, I propose the following.

The threat of terrorist attack is exactly why we should get out of Afghanistan. We went into the country without a clear goal, we are not a nation building country, and now the actions of a past government are putting the Canadian people in danger at home.

We have turned Afghanistan from a extremest Muslim failed state, into a US supported puppet that is now the world leader in Heroin production. The Canadian presence has secured the capital to some extent, but so long as Al Queda is able to flee unhindered into Pakistan, we will never make any headway.

I suppose our biggest obstacle is that a large number of the Afgan people simply don't support us. If they did, the operation to kill the enemy terrorists would be successful. As it is, we don't have the support of the indigenous people, and as such, will never be able to build this country.

We need to pull out, sooner rather than later, and let these people stand (or fall) on their own. Canada is not the world's policeman, and if the US isn't willing to make Afghanistan a primary theatre of war on the fight on terror, then we shouldn't be there at all.

I welcome your thoughts.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Flashpoint

I suppose our biggest obstacle is that a large number of the Afgan people simply don't support us. If they did, the operation to kill the enemy terrorists would be successful. As it is, we don't have the support of the indigenous people, and as such, will never be able to build this country.

I have a really hard time believing that the average Afgan person does not support what Canada is there to do. I highly doubt that they want terrorists in their back yard, blowing everything to bits.

The operation was never to kill the enemy terrorist.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Flashpoint

In an attempt to get back on topic, I propose the following.

The threat of terrorist attack is exactly why we should get out of Afghanistan. We went into the country without a clear goal, we are not a nation building country, and now the actions of a past government are putting the Canadian people in danger at home.

We have turned Afghanistan from a extremest Muslim failed state, into a US supported puppet that is now the world leader in Heroin production. The Canadian presence has secured the capital to some extent, but so long as Al Queda is able to flee unhindered into Pakistan, we will never make any headway.

I suppose our biggest obstacle is that a large number of the Afgan people simply don't support us. If they did, the operation to kill the enemy terrorists would be successful. As it is, we don't have the support of the indigenous people, and as such, will never be able to build this country.

We need to pull out, sooner rather than later, and let these people stand (or fall) on their own. Canada is not the world's policeman, and if the US isn't willing to make Afghanistan a primary theatre of war on the fight on terror, then we shouldn't be there at all.

I welcome your thoughts.

If the people of Afghanistan dont support us then why did they chase away a bunch of Taliban trying to shoot rockets at our base. Also if the people of Afghanistan dont support us we would have a much higher casualty rate than what we do have.

By simply ignoring the problem or backing out so we don't make these fanatics mad will not remove us as a target for attacks. They hate our way of life, our freedoms for all people including women and non-believers. There have been many countries that have been attack not because they send troops to Irag or Afganistan but because they have adopted the western way of life, if you will. Indonesia, France, Germany.

I don't get it. You people that hate these conflicts. Dont hurt the fanatics, let them govern themselves no matter who governs them. Who cares what their government does to their people. Gas em, mass murder them but we can't go in and stop it. If we do its because we want to get their oil. Come on. we have a duty to help these people.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Define radical groups please - maybe a list and why you would consider them "pure evil".

Any group that sends suicide bombers in to kill others. Any group that promotes the destruction of another group or religion.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Any group that sends suicide bombers in to kill others. Any group that promotes the destruction of another group or religion.

So you'd be cool with me going down and giving the local chapter of Nazis in my area a 9mm headache?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

By simply ignoring the problem or backing out so we don't make these fanatics mad will not remove us as a target for attacks. They hate our way of life, our freedoms for all people including women and non-believers. There have been many countries that have been attack not because they send troops to Irag or Afganistan but because they have adopted the western way of life, if you will. Indonesia, France, Germany.

Aah yes, they hate us for our freedoms. It's got nothing to do with all the western meddling in their part of the world, eh? It's always seemed odd to me that they don't hate westerners because of all the meddling/invading and propping up that westerners have done over there, they hate us for what we do over here.

And I find it interesting that Germany and France have "adopted" the western way of life and that's why they were attacked. Some might go so far to say that Germany and France had a prominent role in inventing the western way of life, but that's neither here nor there. I'm also willing to bet that historically France and Germany have been involved in all that meddling and war-fighting, and also that this whole terrorism business didn't just begin with THE WAR ON TERROR.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

So you'd be cool with me going down and giving the local chapter of Nazis in my area a 9mm headache?

You know what buddy. Quit trying to split hairs. You know exactly what I mean. We have laws here in Canada that make it a crime to spout out hate. If you know of someone who is doing that call the police.

Now if you read my post you would realize that I left it up to you to define "eradicate" so if you think the only way to get rid of those Nazi's that your having trouble with than thats your opinion.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

You know what buddy. Quit trying to split hairs. You know exactly what I mean. We have laws here in Canada that make it a crime to spout out hate. If you know of someone who is doing that call the police.

Now if you read my post you would realize that I left it up to you to define "eradicate" so if you think the only way to get rid of those Nazi's that your having trouble with than thats your opinion.

Well, define eradicate then - I wouldn't want to put words in your mouth so perhaps you should clarify what you mean by that.

You should also know (especially someone on the career path you claim to be on) how to get around those laws or avoid them all together. You probably also know that these people know the laws and some of the technicalities about them, so they can avoid going to jail, but still manage to get their message out.

Are you saying that only foriegn people who as 'pure evil groups' should be subject to this? Is that what you mean?

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Well, define eradicate then - I wouldn't want to put words in your mouth so perhaps you should clarify what you mean by that.

You should also know (especially someone on the career path you claim to be on) how to get around those laws or avoid them all together. You probably also know that these people know the laws and some of the technicalities about them, so they can avoid going to jail, but still manage to get their message out.

Are you saying that only foriegn people who as 'pure evil groups' should be subject to this? Is that what you mean?

OK, let me clairify. People have the right to their own opinion regardless of what it is. However, once they act on their opinions to kill, destroy, maim, torture then they need to be taken care of.

The best way to deal with this is to remove the components that create this. This includes but not limited to, removal of governments that harbour and support such actions, job creation, and all around better living conditions for people in general. Now as we have seen in England, just because people are employed, wealthy and healthy does not mean that they will not fall to these radical ideas.

Its one thing to believe a certain way. It's another to incite and propel their beliefs into action.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

OK, let me clairify. People have the right to their own opinion regardless of what it is. However, once they act on their opinions to kill, destroy, maim, torture then they need to be taken care of.

The best way to deal with this is to remove the components that create this. This includes but not limited to, removal of governments that harbour and support such actions, job creation, and all around better living conditions for people in general. Now as we have seen in England, just because people are employed, wealthy and healthy does not mean that they will not fall to these radical ideas.

Its one thing to believe a certain way. It's another to incite and propel their beliefs into action.

Do you understand how many countries could actually be accused of harbouring, aiding, contributing to fanatical and destructive groups? There's not enough troops in the world to get this done in a reasonable timeframe.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Do you understand how many countries could actually be accused of harbouring, aiding, contributing to fanatical and destructive groups? There's not enough troops in the world to get this done in a reasonable timeframe.

No where near enough troops, especially when financial contributions and training happen in Canada and the US, as well as most other countries.

Something has to be done to curb these crimes though (stealing credit cards, PINs, etc).

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Do you understand how many countries could actually be accused of harbouring, aiding, contributing to fanatical and destructive groups? There's not enough troops in the world to get this done in a reasonable timeframe.

You know what, forget it. If you want to compare Canada to Iran and Afganistan its not even worth talking to you guys about it.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Do you understand how many countries could actually be accused of harbouring, aiding, contributing to fanatical and destructive groups? There's not enough troops in the world to get this done in a reasonable timeframe.

In that case, pull all our troops from everywhere in the world, same with the US Military. Who gives a flying rats ass what those people do to each other?



Of course the Western World is to blame for everything. Including 9/11. Seems like some people believe the US deserved what they got. But we're not allowed to fight back.

[Flashpoint]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

I don't get it. You people that hate these conflicts.

Who exactly are you speaking about here when you say "you people".

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Flashpoint

Who exactly are you speaking about here when you say "you people".

i guess "you people" is pretty general hey. I mean the people that hate the fact that our military is in Afghanistan or US in Iraq.

I certainly dont agree with the reasons they gave for why they went into these countries, but just to make life better for people in general should be good enough reason.

And I know, I know, people will say "is their life any better now than before"? Hard to tell but the people making their life difficult now are not the foreign soldiers but the terrorists trying to prevent freedoms from entering these places. It will get better.

[Flashpoint]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

i guess "you people" is pretty general hey. I mean the people that hate the fact that our military is in Afghanistan or US in Iraq.

Hate is a pretty strong word. And people have a lot of different reasons for not agreeing with our military presence in Afghanistan.

For my part, I don't see the purpose. No foreign power in history has managed to stabilize that part of the world, nor is there any reason to think that we will be able to. There is a reason the Al Queda insurgents are able to continue to attack a better armed, better financed opponent time and time again. They have local support. They will continue to have local support. There are a lot of people who want to continue to see the region unstable - religious fanatic, drug lords, warlords. Are the people on the ground going to suddenly embrace some mythical "Western way is the best way!" ideals? Despite the fact it calls for things that you and I take for granted, yet run totally contrary to the cutsoms of the region? Like equal rights for women, human rights against torture, religious freedom etc? It runs totally contrary to their beliefs.

Have you ever tried to convince a hard core Catholic that the bible might not actually be the words of god? Well try persuading some goat farmer with a grade 3 education that his 14 year old wife should have the same voting rights as he does. Good luck.

I agree there are a lot of bad people in the world - dictators, genocidal maniacs, abusers of human rights. Yet we are in Afghanistan, and not any of these other places. Kim Jong Il is s--t house rat crazy, and has nukes. Yet we aren't going in there.

It is not our job to impress our beliefs on foreign peoples. You will never succeed in bringing democracy to a people with the end of a gun. Afghanistan demanded a response after 9/11. Fair enough. The U.S. ousted the government, and ran off the Taliban. They have now lost interest, and an increasing amount of the job is falling to us.

We aren't suited to nation building.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Flashpoint

Hate is a pretty strong word. And people have a lot of different reasons for not agreeing with our military presence in Afghanistan.

For my part, I don't see the purpose. No foreign power in history has managed to stabilize that part of the world, nor is there any reason to think that we will be able to. There is a reason the Al Queda insurgents are able to continue to attack a better armed, better financed opponent time and time again. They have local support. They will continue to have local support. There are a lot of people who want to continue to see the region unstable - religious fanatic, drug lords, warlords. Are the people on the ground going to suddenly embrace some mythical "Western way is the best way!" ideals? Despite the fact it calls for things that you and I take for granted, yet run totally contrary to the cutsoms of the region? Like equal rights for women, human rights against torture, religious freedom etc? It runs totally contrary to their beliefs.

Have you ever tried to convince a hard core Catholic that the bible might not actually be the words of god? Well try persuading some goat farmer with a grade 3 education that his 14 year old wife should have the same voting rights as he does. Good luck.

I agree there are a lot of bad people in the world - dictators, genocidal maniacs, abusers of human rights. Yet we are in Afghanistan, and not any of these other places. Kim Jong Il is s--t house rat crazy, and has nukes. Yet we aren't going in there.

It is not our job to impress our beliefs on foreign peoples. You will never succeed in bringing democracy to a people with the end of a gun. Afghanistan demanded a response after 9/11. Fair enough. The U.S. ousted the government, and ran off the Taliban. They have now lost interest, and an increasing amount of the job is falling to us.

We aren't suited to nation building.

The reason that the mid east has been so screwed up and no foreign power has been able to stablize the area (in resent times) is because no one sticks around to help them out. If we remain there for the long haul it will become a better place and attidudes will change. They are changing now.

The west use to treat women the same but we changed. Its only a matter of time and commitment.

I guess if you dont believe that we should change these crazy governments than is your belief that we should just let them fester there and only worry about ourselves?