United 93, opening old wounds and exposing some truth?

[snappyk]

Are you saying that the planes flew themselves into the towers and the Pentagon? I'm confused.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Poor, uneducated, rubes that could not fly cessnas were able to pentrate multiple levels of national security and then commandeer multi-engine commercial airliners and fly them into buildings and ground structures, one of which included some flying that the best pilots in the world could not pull off (the hitting of the Pentagon)

That does seem to be a pretty impossible trick to pull off, but it's not nearly as difficult as pulling off a hoax the size of the one you are proposing.

Besides, we all know that this administration is far too inept to come up with and do something that clever.

[NuclearFart]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Yes, Occam's Razor is a good rule to bring up. Which is the simplist explanation? Poor, uneducated, rubes that could not fly cessnas were able to pentrate multiple levels of national security and then commandeer multi-engine commercial airliners and fly them into buildings and ground structures, one of which included some flying that the best pilots in the world could not pull off (the hitting of the Pentagon)

or

something else?

I think you underestimate what these guys were capable of: 1) They dedicate years to this one cause, so its hardly unfathomable if they spent the time training solely for this moment. 2) Pre-9/11, it wasnt that hard to penetrate multiple levels of security, its as simple as that. 3) I don't agree with your assessment that the technical skills required to do what they did, were unattainable. In subscribing to your pretense, you are unneccesarily complicating the issues with a false premise. I sincerely doubt that there are genuine scientific experiments out there that have assessed the best pilots in the world crashing into buildings. I am not a pilot (and I doubt you are too), but I don't think it would be that hard to fly in a straight line, especially after some practice and a bit of luck. Rather than implying that they were doing arial combat maneuvers and evading sam sites in a 757 or whatever, why not keep it simple and logically assume they just flew in a straight line?

Sounds pretty simple to me, rather than your alternative. No offense, but look at how many lines of text its taken you just to explain your theory, and its still wrought with holes.
________
LovelyWendie99

[White Doors]

The mark of a paranoid conspiracy theorist is to answer questions with questions. Why is the sky blue Lanny?

And it's true, he really is too far gone to help.
His opinions are on the lunatic fringe and this just proves it.

sad.

[Kool Keef]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

something else?

Yeah, something else like potentially remote controlled aircrafts flown into buildings, phantom missles, controlled demolitions, and a conspiracy which would have to involve hundreds of people that have somehow managed to keep this secret in a town where NSA evesdropping/spying, CIA secret prisons, and CIA secret agents names have all been leaked to a press that is not very fond of the president.

I'm also to believe that the same people that created this "hoax" are the same people who haven't found WMD. I mean if you're going to cook up 9/11, placing WMD in Iraq to "justify" a war should be easy as pie.

[White Doors]

Originally Posted by snappyk

Are you saying that the planes flew themselves into the towers and the Pentagon? I'm confused.

Not really, he's confused.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Yes, Occam's Razor is a good rule to bring up. Which is the simplist explanation? Poor, uneducated, rubes that could not fly cessnas were able to pentrate multiple levels of national security and then commandeer multi-engine commercial airliners and fly them into buildings and ground structures, one of which included some flying that the best pilots in the world could not pull off (the hitting of the Pentagon)

or

something else?

Or how about middle class, educated, motivated, and intelligent Saudi's who had competent aviation training were able to do just that.

You seem to have turned Ockham's Razor into Ockham's miracle hair-growth formula. Instead of shaving off uneccessary entities in an explanation, everything you post is just more conspiracy theory bunk that mires logic in the irrational and irreducible tangle of an imaginary Santa Claus beard with fantastical and exaggerated claims such as "not even the world's best pilots" when the Pentagon is something like 70 times the size of a 757...how are pilots supposed to land on runways less than two times the wingspan of a plane if they can't hit a giant target like that?

I'm sorry but nobody is taking you seriously in this thread and really, to all your conspiracy theorists, aren't there better ways to invest your time?

[Resolute 14]

Ahh hell, I'll bite.

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

* Why was the Pentagon attacked where it was? The Pentagon had been under-going renovations in that wing for months. A highly organized attack like this would have known this and would have selected a more appropriate area for attack. It was well known that the "brains" in the Pentagon were on the other side of the building. Attacking this area made no sense.

* Why would the terrorists decide to attack this side when it took an incredibly difficult maneuver to get the plane to hit this side in the manner it did? The easiest attack angle would have been straight on and would have generated the most damage in the place where the most important targets were residing.

I suppose it is possible that the point of impact was accidental. It is possible that the hijackers were too busy praising Allah to properly orient their plane for the most damage. If, as you suggest, the hijackers were "barely able to fly a cessna", why would it be so hard to assume they missed the side of the building they were aiming for?

There is also the fact that the Pentagon is a uniform pentagon. They might have just gotten their bearings confused and simply hit the wrong side.

* Why attack the Pentagon at all? The Pentagon has five missile defense batteries in case of attacks to Washington. These defense batteries, and many more like them around Washington, account for the extremely narrow traffic corridor for commercial flights. Amazingly these defense systems all failed on this day, long after the WTC was struck. Why?

You answered your own question earlier. The attacks were supposed to be aimed at the financial, military and governmental hearts of the US.

The logical argument for the failure of the missile batteries is that those in command had not yet given any orders to shoot down a commuter plane in the 40 or so minutes since the WTC was struck. As we saw with Katrina, the Bush administration isnt exactly quick to respond to national emergencies.

* If creating death and destruction were the reason behind the attacks, why would the hijackers just not fly the planes into a nuclear reactor? The planes all flew close to reactors (the second plane flew directly over a reactor on the way to New York IIRC) so why not just crash the planes into these reactors and kill hundreds of thousands and make the north east uninhabitable for a few thousand years?

Possibly becuase the terrorist leaders are smart enough that what would effectively be a nuclear attack would be returned in kind? All leaders are more than willing to send their subjects out to die, but they usually arent so quick to do so themselves. If this scenario came to pass, much of Afghanistan would be a parking lot today.

Lots of unexplained questions all around. That's what makes this subject so interesting and so controversial. People refuse to think that the government would dare allow or conspire to let these events unfold, but they readily accept that a group of 19 hijackers who were barely capable of flying cessnas were capable of pulling off this devious plan. Coming up with the plan is one thing, but execution is another.

And we have seen with the invasion of Iraq and the response to Katrina that the Bush administration isn't all that competent either. I suspect few people believe this conspiracy theory because it is much easier to believe that people with minimal flight training can fly a jet liner in a straight line for a short time than it is to believe that the US government would attack itself.

To the best of my knowledge, there is not a shred of evidence to suggest that the US government was responsible for these attacks (aside from its foreign policy). Certantly there is a ton of misinformation and propaganda that emerged as the result of 9-11, but that alone is not enough to make this conspiracy theory believable. Once again, the why does not mesh with the how.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Kool Keef

Yeah, something else like potentially remote controlled aircrafts flown into buildings, phantom missles, controlled demolitions, and a conspiracy which would have to involve hundreds of people that have somehow managed to keep this secret in a town where NSA evesdropping/spying, CIA secret prisons, and CIA secret agents names have all been leaked to a press that is not very fond of the president.

I'm also to believe that the same people that created this "hoax" are the same people who haven't found WMD. I mean if you're going to cook up 9/11, placing WMD in Iraq to "justify" a war should be easy as pie.

Exactly, if they go as far as to arrange something ridiculous like an operation to crash remote controlled aircraft(s) into the Pentagon...or even more ridiculous as many theorists claim, hit the Pentagon with a missile and then truck in misc. "fresh" non-757 debris they managed to have lying around...as catalyst and justification for invading Iraq (as the ultimate goal).

Then you go out of your way to invent elaborate misinformation about WMDs and then proceed to invade said country who's entire military infrastructure crumbles before your army as the entire place falls into unsupervised chaos and anarchy... and you can't arrange a team to go burry some WMD evidence in the middle of the desert when nobody is looking? Yeah right!

[Resolute 14]

Also, If flight 77 did not hit the Pentagon, where did it go? It must have taken one hell of a coordinated effort to dissapear 64 people so as not to spoil the conspiracy.

Also, you are now involving the Airlines and flight control centres in this conspiracy.

Not to mention how much effort it would take to give all of these people believable stories, to have them tell it to the press, and maintian their silence about the truth to this day:

http://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon...sses/bart.html

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

The logical argument for the failure of the missile batteries is that those in command had not yet given any orders to shoot down a commuter plane in the 40 or so minutes since the WTC was struck. As we saw with Katrina, the Bush administration isnt exactly quick to respond to national emergencies.

Possibly becuase the terrorist leaders are smart enough that what would effectively be a nuclear attack would be returned in kind? All leaders are more than willing to send their subjects out to die, but they usually arent so quick to do so themselves. If this scenario came to pass, much of Afghanistan would be a parking lot today.

And we have seen with the invasion of Iraq and the response to Katrina that the Bush administration isn't all that competent either. I suspect few people believe this conspiracy theory because it is much easier to believe that people with minimal flight training can fly a jet liner in a straight line for a short time than it is to believe that the US government would attack itself.

Great post. We've seen how slow to action, disorganized, and incompentent the Bush Administration has been time and time again. Perhaps in some twisted way some people find it easier to believe in a unified X-Files type government order being in control (and attacking itself) than "poor, uneducated" (which they weren't) hijackers being able to cause so much damage.

That's really the heart of all conspiracy theories work from anti-semitism (world order of Jewish control working toward ultimate end) to Marxism (world order of capitalists working together to opress and decieve), etc.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

Also, If flight 77 did not hit the Pentagon, where did it go? It must have taken one hell of a coordinated effort to dissapear 64 people so as not to spoil the conspiracy.

Also, you are now involving the Airlines and flight control centres in this conspiracy.

Not to mention how much effort it would take to give all of these people believable stories, to have them tell it to the press, and maintian their silence about the truth to this day:

http://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon...sses/bart.html

Add to that eyewitness accounts of people actually seeing the plane, you know, hitting the Pentagon.....

[Mike F]

I don't buy the grand conspiracy of US orchestration of all of the events of 9/11 -- it's just too large and complicated a scheme to pull off and keep quiet.

However, the one thing that keeps me from completely accepting the conventional explanation for the Pentagon attack is the fact that there were cameras located in (IIRC) a hotel and a gas station nearby that should show the entire incident, but which were confiscated by the gov't within hours and still have not been released.

You'd think that if they showed a large passanger jet hitting the Pentagon then the gov't would just show them and end the controversy.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

That does seem to be a pretty impossible trick to pull off, but it's not nearly as difficult as pulling off a hoax the size of the one you are proposing.

Besides, we all know that this administration is far too inept to come up with and do something that clever.

Thank you.

As has been exponded on this very board ad nauseum..."dubya" is so stupid he is lucky to dress himself in the morning.

Yet, and this is so rich to me, he was able to oversee some masterminds plot that allowed the people he was DIRECTLY in control of to fly commercial airliners into the towers, (including one that already had a missile strapped to the bottom of it that no one boarding the plane, nor ATC, nor anyone else on the ground) and no one noticed.

He was then able to control all media outlets, personal observations, and common sense and convince people that what they DIDNT see is what really happened?

THEN, they have been able to cover things up for 5 years following including implicating the chiefs of staff, secretary of state(s) and a multitude of other high ranking officials. On top of that EVERY other Government in the world?

Laughable, absurd, and ANYONE who believes such nonsense is beyond delusional and needs to apply for the movie Conspiracies part two.

Unreal.

[Azure]

And the Democrats never knew about it either.......

[Mike F]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Thank you.

As has been exponded on this very board ad nauseum..."dubya" is so stupid he is lucky to dress himself in the morning.

Yet, and this is so rich to me, he was able to. . . .

Again, I don't buy the grand conspiracy, but I also don't buy the "dumb dubya" defense.

George W. Bush wasn't smart enough to run a baseball team or oil company, and he wasn't smart enough to get himself elected, but he was and is advised (handled) by some very smart people (Rove, Wolfowitz, etc.) who orchestrated a couple of masterful campaigns and could, no doubt, cook up one heck of an evil scheme if so inclined. Dubya need only be smart enough to keep his mouth shut, other that spewing out the odd talking point or folksy banter.

[snappyk]

Is Lanny American? I was just wondering I also like how cockpit is cencored on this site, that's kind of funny

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by snappyk

Is Lanny American? I was just wondering I also like how cockpit is cencored on this site, that's kind of funny

I don't think he'd mind me answering this...

Lanny is Canadian, married to an American and living in Phoenix, AZ.

[Knut]

I bet those dastardley Illuminati are involved... with all their scheming and what not....

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by snappyk

I also like how cockpit is cencored on this site, that's kind of funny

It isn't. At least if its spelled correctly.

Cockpit
**** pit