"Boycott Da Vinci Code film" - Vatican

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by FireFly

Abstinence is the only way to ensure with 100% accuracy that you will not get pregnant or AIDS. When there are how many millions of people living in Africa and condoms only have a 97% accuracy rating, yes, I think choosing abstinance is the best way to go. Unfortunately a lot of people can't keep their pants done up.

When there's a 1/3 chance the person you're about to sleep with has AIDS, and only a 97% chance your condom (if you even know how to use it, and don't expect the Chuch to teach people how to use the damn things,) will work, I'd say the odds are heavily not in your favour and you should just keep your pants on. Apparently I just have more restraint than some.

That's fine and I agree with you. I'm not saying they advocated free sex and condoms, I'm saying they don't need to condemn them. 97% is a hell of a lof better than 0%.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by rubecube

That's fine and I agree with you. I'm not saying they advocated free sex and condoms, I'm saying they don't need to condemn them. 97% is a hell of a lof better than 0%.

What makes you think that those people would even use condoms if the church said it was fine? They are already doing things that the church prohibits by having a high risk life-style. Obviously their religious convictions are not that strong to begin with. In fact, having random sex is probably a much bigger sin than using a condom. Surely, if they can shun the church on major issues, than they can't be controlled that much.

Don't kid yourself. They don't use condoms because;

a) they don't want to for selfish reasons,
b) it is culturally frowned upon and considered unmasculine,
and, c) they can't afford them.

I would wager that the church affects far fewer people than those other factors.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

What makes you think that those people would even use condoms if the church said it was fine? They are already doing things that the church prohibits by having a high risk life-style. Obviously their religious convictions are not that strong to begin with. In fact, having random sex is probably a much bigger sin than using a condom. Surely, if they can shun the church on major issues, than they can't be controlled that much.

Don't kid yourself. They don't use condoms because;

a) they don't want to for selfish reasons,
b) it is culturally frowned upon and considered unmasculine,
and, c) they can't afford them.

I would wager that the church affects far fewer people than those other factors.

Two of those reasons are caused by a lack of education. Was watching a CBC report on this about aid workers providing free condoms to people in Africa, but having them turned down for "religious reasons".

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Two of those reasons are caused by a lack of education. Was watching a CBC report on this about aid workers providing free condoms to people in Africa, but having them turned down for "religious reasons".

Because people don't make stuff up when they don't want to do something.... Ever hear of "Oh, don't worry. I'll pull out...."

I'm quite certain that Africans aren't stupid and can make their own decisions. If they're turning down condoms for religious reasons, surely then they are also staying abstinent for religious reasons!

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

b) it is culturally frowned upon and considered unmasculine,

What influences Culture? One of the factors would be beleif systems (religion). FA, Generalizing about Africian ideology is like talking about "Europe", there are a variety of factors associated with all of the cultures in Africa.

The question that needs to be asked is: Would the church promoting condom use help slow/stop the spread of AIDs in Africa? The answer would be yes, maybe not immediately in the short term, but in the long term it would probably contribute to changing attitudes about contraception in some regions of the country.

There are a lot of reasons for the limited use of condoms in Africa, some of it can be blamed on the attitudes of the church, but it would be unfair to blame even most of the problem on the church.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

What influences Culture? One of the factors would be beleif systems (religion). FA, Generalizing about Africian ideology is like talking about "Europe", there are a variety of factors associated with all of the cultures in Africa.

The question that needs to be asked is: Would the church promoting condom use help slow/stop the spread of AIDs in Africa? The answer would be yes, maybe not immediately in the short term, but in the long term it would probably contribute to changing attitudes about contraception in some regions of the country.

There are a lot of reasons for the limited use of condoms in Africa, some of it can be blamed on the attitudes of the church, but it would be unfair to blame even most of the problem on the church.

I wasn't just thinking of Africa when I wrote that. It applies to males in many cultures - including ours. As well as Catholics and non-Catholics. Most people in Africa are non-Catholics by the way. Including countries with very high HIV infection rates.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Two of those reasons are caused by a lack of education. Was watching a CBC report on this about aid workers providing free condoms to people in Africa, but having them turned down for "religious reasons".

Did they say that the religious reasons were "Catholic" reasons? Not all Africans are Catholics - most are not.

I have heard a lot of the religious purposes for not using condoms have to do with tribal customs. I heard one African guy in a documentary state that he believed AIDS was an evil spirit and a condom can't work against that. That certainly isn't a Catholic belief.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by FireFly

Because people don't make stuff up when they don't want to do something.... Ever hear of "Oh, don't worry. I'll pull out...."

Had to laugh when I read that.

I'm quite certain that Africans aren't stupid and can make their own decisions. If they're turning down condoms for religious reasons, surely then they are also staying abstinent for religious reasons!

That might be a reasonable thought process, but a lot of people pick and choose when it comes to religion.

Africans aren't stupid, but being mostly third-world their tends to be a lack of education. In fact a lot of Africans get their education specifically from the church. There the messages tend to be "Practice abstinence" and "Contraception is bad". The problem is, both aren't delivered with the same intentions. And saying "Contraception is bad" does not help anything.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I have heard a lot of the religious purposes for not using condoms have to do with tribal customs.

Yep, you are completely right.

My point is every little bit helps - you might not change everyones mind, but even changing 1 out of a 1000 (pulling a number out of my ass), would help.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Did they say that the religious reasons were "Catholic" reasons? Not all Africans are Catholics - most are not.

I have heard a lot of the religious purposes for not using condoms have to do with tribal customs. I heard one African guy in a documentary state that he believed AIDS was an evil spirit and a condom can't work against that. That certainly isn't a Catholic belief.

I undertsand that. I'm not blaming the Catholic Church for AIDS. I'm blaming them for condemning the practising of safe sex. Would it be ridiculous for them to recognize that not everyone remains abstinent and that there are measures to protect yourself during sex?

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by FireFly

I'm quite certain that Africans aren't stupid and can make their own decisions. If they're turning down condoms for religious reasons, surely then they are also staying abstinent for religious reasons!

To be honest FireFly, there is a ton of misinformation associated with Birth Control in some areas of Africa - For example in Ghana, there are some contraceptive Clinics who deny service, give purposely faulty information about specific forms of Birth control in order to stop people from using it. Some clinics make it hard for women in particular from receiving birth control by measures such as making it so their husband/parents have to sign a waiver in order to provide access to certain types of contraceptive.

[Dynamic]

Hahaha the church is so dumb. Let me get this straight.........they think people should abstain from sex just because they aren't married??? Go against hundreds of thousands of years of evolution???

Life is not that complicated.......we are just animals, people tend to forget that.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Dynamic

Hahaha the church is so dumb. Let me get this straight.........they think people should abstain from sex just because they aren't married??? Go against hundreds of thousands of years of evolution???

Life is not that complicated.......we are just animals, people tend to forget that.

I have no problem with them preaching abstinence. In fact, I think it's a good thing for some. The church just needs to realize that people aren't going to listen to everything they say and to condemn protecting yourself is unreasonable.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I undertsand that. I'm not blaming the Catholic Church for AIDS. I'm blaming them for condemning the practising of safe sex. Would it be ridiculous for them to recognize that not everyone remains abstinent and that there are measures to protect yourself during sex?

It's not ridiculous, but I really don't think it would matter.

If people, including Catholics, want to use condoms, they will regardless of anything the church says. If the church tells them not to have casual sex, yet they still choose to, then I honestly doubt that those same people will choose not to have safe sex just because the church doesn't allow condoms. They might use it as a scapegoat, but it's not an excuse if they are breaking every other rule the church has anyway.

If they don't listen to the church on one issue, why would they on something relatively minor like condom use? I personally know a lot of Catholics that use birth control. Most don't hang on the pope's every word.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Yep, you are completely right.

My point is every little bit helps - you might not change everyones mind, but even changing 1 out of a 1000 (pulling a number out of my ass), would help.

I guess every little bit helps, but considering that there is no correlation between Catholicism and HIV spreading, it sounds like wasted energy and that the Catholic Church is getting more grief than it deserves on this particular issue. In fact, some predominatly Catholic counties have the lowest HIV rate in the Western world.

If people got as angry about poverty, education, and women's issues in 3rd world countries, as they do about the Catholic Church's birth control policies, we could go from changing 1 out of 1000, to changing 1 out of 100, or even better.

Just some numbers to chew on:

People living with HIV per capita:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/...hiv_aid_percap

Percentage of Catholics per country:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/rel_cat_as_per

Percentage of Catholics vs. People living with HIV (per capita)

http://www.nationmaster.com/plot/rel...aid_percap/all
(no obvious correlation)

Based on that data, I think the Catholic Church should be low on our list of worries, on this issue anyway.

[Cheese]

Maybe...just maybe Africans arent really Catholics after all?
Maybe its a farce to simply show higher numbers for the church?
Maybe Africans could really care less about the church and its preachings MUCH like the rest of the world?

Maybe.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I guess every little bit helps, but considering that there is no correlation between Catholicism and HIV spreading, it sounds like wasted energy and that the Catholic Church is getting more grief than it deserves on this particular issue. In fact, some predominatly Catholic counties have the lowest HIV rate in the Western world.

If people got as angry about poverty, education, and women's issues in 3rd world countries, as they do about the Catholic Church's birth control policies, we could go from changing 1 out of 1000, to changing 1 out of 100, or even better.

Just some numbers to chew on:

People living with HIV per capita:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/...hiv_aid_percap

Percentage of Catholics per country:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/rel_cat_as_per

Percentage of Catholics vs. People living with HIV (per capita)

http://www.nationmaster.com/plot/rel...aid_percap/all
(no obvious correlation)

Based on that data, I think the Catholic Church should be low on our list of worries, on this issue anyway.

All that is saying is that "I'm not the worst offender" - nor did I ever say that the Church was the worst offender, and I think you are just lumping me in with some of the people who have taken a much harsher stance.

Also, you need to understand that I am not targetting the church here, there is a ton of blame to go around, however, to put your head in the sand and say that if the church promoted condoms it would make zero difference is a falsehood.

Precisely what that data says is: There is a problem with condom use everywhere in Africa.

[ernie]

Reminds me of the Father Ted episode where they are told to protest "The Passion of St. Tibulus" and their protests end up making it the most successful movie the island has ever seen. People coming from all over Ireland to go see it.

Of course this movie was going to be a hit anyways but man does the Catholic Church know how to create interest in nothing and pretty much guarantee that that nothing will be a hit.

[Reaper]

The boycotting of "The Da Vinci Code" reminds me of Robin Williams' commentary on the protesters that could be found outside theatres when "The Last Temptation of Christ" was playing:

"People are picketing outside the theatres with signs and megaphones going 'This movie is NOT real!'

Listen, Sparky... No movie is real!"

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

One has to wonder if the best alternative for the Catholic church would have been to just ignore this book entirely. The book isn't good. It's unlikely that the movie will be good. People aren't going to the movie with their notebooks in hand, thinking "let's write down all the dirt about the Catholic Church!" Most of the people who see this movie won't be catholic anyway. It's all kind of a storm in a teacup--and by behaving in this way, the Church is making this issue far more important than it needs to be.