Moussaoui tells why he hates America....

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Nice you say I'm calling you names and then you do the same.
Where did I call you a name? I said one of your statements was ignorant and I stand by that, I didn't call you stupid and I was making the point that you tend to make these statments that you know aren't true but you make them anyway, that's just ignorant. Religions don't teach their people to hate, but some people do use religion in trhis way. That's a big difference.

And you've completely echoed my point, that it's not religion per se that has caused a lot of terrible things to take place, it is the abuse of it.

As far as joining the fundamentalists go, I can perfectly well say that I'm not religious while still maintaining some objectivity and respecting someones right to their faith. It's called tolerance Cheese, something that you as a humanist should be familliar with, but it appears even humanists are capable of abusing their belief system.

So go ahead, keep posting articles about religion and make fun of every religion you can think of. Go ahead and look down on people just because they choose to follow a faith, any faith. If that's what makes you feel like a smart important guy, then I won't stop you.

In the mean time I'm going to go look up the Humanist doctrine to find out where it says that they think it's cool to belittle people because they beleive in something, because that is really the kind of people I want to be involved with.

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Religion is not the problem, it is people's abuse of it that has caused problems, and this is something that pretty much all religions preach against.

In all honesty, that's contradictory.

Since all organized religions rely on the interpretation of its tenets by earthly people, who's to say - besides God or Buddha - which group might actually be right? Is it you? Or is the alleged abusers?

Cowperson

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Nice you say I'm calling you names and then you do the same.
Where did I call you a name? I said one of your statements was ignorant and I stand by that, I didn't call you stupid and I was making the point that you tend to make these statments that you know aren't true but you make them anyway, that's just ignorant. Religions don't teach their people to hate, but some people do use religion in trhis way. That's a big difference.

And you've completely echoed my point, that it's not religion per se that has caused a lot of terrible things to take place, it is the abuse of it.

As far as joining the fundamentalists go, I can perfectly well say that I'm not religious while still maintaining some objectivity and respecting someones right to their faith. It's called tolerance Cheese, something that you as a humanist should be familliar with, but it appears even humanists are capable of abusing their belief system.

So go ahead, keep posting articles about religion and make fun of every religion you can think of. Go ahead and look down on people just because they choose to follow a faith, any faith. If that's what makes you feel like a smart important guy, then I won't stop you.

In the mean time I'm going to go look up the Humanist doctrine to find out where it says that they think it's cool to belittle people because they beleive in something, because that is really the kind of people I want to be involved with.

Let me help you, not sure you can figure it out. Of course Ive posted this about 200 times as well.
The FACT that I think RELIGIONS are a problem does NOT mean I do not respect others.

[Frank the Tank]

Oh Cheese, the same thing happens in EVERY religous thread you start. You never attack anyone, call them dumb, say they are wrong, you just strongly disagree with religion (as do I) and you get dog-piled.

Kinda makes me laugh (at your expense).

You're one of the most well-informed, intelligent posters and you get crapped on for debating facts. But then again, there are no real "facts" for religous-types, are there?

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

In all honesty, that's contradictory.

Since all organized religions rely on the interpretation of its tenets by earthly people, who's to say - besides God or Buddha - which group might actually be right? Is it you? Or is the alleged abusers?

Cowperson

Yes that is a good point, but my point is that there is a difference between the interpretations of Toothless Joe Evanjelical, Crazy Cleric Al Whoever, and the teachings of established churches.

Individual belief does not equal religion.

Is the Pope preaching hate (yes it has happened in the past, but that is an anomoly, not the rule), what about the Dalli Lamma (Sp?), what about the vast majority of Muslim clerics that stick to what Islam was founded on?

Can Cheese actually show me a Religous body, that is preaching hate, or can he show me small groups who have twisted a religion for their own purposes. That is a huge difference, and he knows it, but chooses to completely ignore this fact.

Yes religion can be abused just like anything else, I'll never debate that, but the basis of every religion that I have even the slightest understanding of, are not hate based as Cheese likes to suggest.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Let me help you, not sure you can figure it out. Of course Ive posted this about 200 times as well.
The FACT that I think RELIGIONS are a problem does NOT mean I do not respect others.

Funny, because when I respect someone, I tend not to refer to their beliefs as fairy tales.

[Frank the Tank]

But you generalize too much BBS. Cheese showed in his first post how the Qu'aran promotes hate. Not all followers act on it, but a lot do.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Funny, because when I respect someone, I tend not to refer to their beliefs as fairy tales.

Well MR Shantz...like I keep saying...prove it otherwise. Dogpile me all you want, but provide me something to suggest that Noahs Ark, the Eve from Adams Rib, all of it, has any basis at all.
Then tell me you have no issue with your tax dollars going to schools who espouse these theories.
Look me in the eye and suggest to me that you would want your kids to go to bed at night thinking the mistake they made that day will lead them to Hell.
You talk like Religion or its theories are something that we should all just hold our noses about and let go because overall they are just average good people, and their theories are nothing more than harmless little passages in books taught to be fact?

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Funny, because when I respect someone, I tend not to refer to their beliefs as fairy tales.

News flash: Catholic church admits that the bible is collection of parables (nee fairy tales) and should not be interpretted literally. There's more evidence to support the existence of bigfoot than there is to support the existence of Jesus Christ. The stories are great, well meaning, and up lifting, but they are far from being factual in any shape or fashion. The Brothers Grimm wrote some pretty inpirational work as well, maybe we should worship them (not the movie) too?

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Frank the Tank

But you generalize too much BBS. Cheese showed in his first post how the Qu'aran promotes hate. Not all followers act on it, but a lot do.

Fine the Qu'aran promotes hate. I suppose some religions promote hate. But I still would like an example from Cheese as to the Pope preaching hate, and the Dalli Lama.

He's generalizing with his Religions teach hate. You've proven that I was wrong about Islam (I suppose they are evil ).

I'm pretty sure I can prove that Cheese's blanket statment about religion is wrong as well with my two examples.

That's where the problem lies, I'm willing to let others be in their beliefs, I'll accept that people can have fait and believe in whatever they want, including thinking that there is no God. Unlike Cheese seems to think he's better than everyone who believes in "fairy tales" because he's a humanist.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Fine the Qu'aran promotes hate. I suppose some religions promote hate. But I still would like an example from Cheese as to the Pope preaching hate, and the Dalli Lama.

He's generalizing with his Religions teach hate. You've proven that I was wrong about Islam (I suppose they are evil ).

I'm pretty sure I can prove that Cheese's blanket statment about religion is wrong as well with my two examples.

That's where the problem lies, I'm willing to let others be in their beliefs, I'll accept that people can have fait and believe in whatever they want, including thinking that there is no God. Unlike Cheese seems to think he's better than everyone who believes in "fairy tales" because he's a humanist.

I love it how the religious types always want us to debunk the exceptions when they refuse to acknowledge the norm for the most part.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Well MR Shantz...like I keep saying...prove it otherwise. Dogpile me all you want, but provide me something to suggest that Noahs Ark, the Eve from Adams Rib, all of it, has any basis at all.
Then tell me you have no issue with your tax dollars going to schools who espouse these theories.
Look me in the eye and suggest to me that you would want your kids to go to bed at night thinking the mistake they made that day will lead them to Hell.
You talk like Religion or its theories are something that we should all just hold our noses about and let go because overall they are just average good people, and their theories are nothing more than harmless little passages in books taught to be fact?

I can't prove it, and I don't intend to. But I respect someone's desire to belive whatever the hell they want. I have no issue with my tax dollars going to the seperate school board, as this is a choice you make when you pay your taxes, which school board they go to. The only difference between the two really is that one teaches one more class.

Why shouldn't we let people belive whatever they want? Why can't you just let it go? How are you any different with your disdain for religion, and constant blathering about how everyone who belives in any sort of it is wrong, from the evalgelical born again bible thumpers?

Apparently there is no room for tolerance in Humanism, so you can have it.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

I can't prove it, and I don't intend to. But I respect someone's desire to belive whatever the hell they want. I have no issue with my tax dollars going to the seperate school board, as this is a choice you make when you pay your taxes, which school board they go to. The only difference between the two really is that one teaches one more class.

Why shouldn't we let people belive whatever they want? Why can't you just let it go? How are you any different with your disdain for religion, and constant blathering about how everyone who belives in any sort of it is wrong, from the evalgelical born again bible thumpers?

Apparently there is no room for tolerance in Humanism, so you can have it.

Hey as long as someone's not telling me what to do based on their beliefs, I have no problem with religion.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I love it how the religious types always want us to debunk the exceptions when they refuse to acknowledge the norm for the most part.

First of all, I'm not a religious type, I'm a tollerant type, I don't care what people think but I hate it when others think they are above everyone else because of their belifs. Whether their beliefs are religios our atheist, I don't care, just don't push it on me or anyone else, and don't think you're better because of it and we'll have no problem. Truth be told, me beliefs problay aren't that far from Cheeses, and the only part I take exception with is his "I need to prove that what you belive is wrong" attitude.

As for acknowleging the norm, Cheese made a blanket statement that relgion promotes hate. He also claims to hold to the scientific method which is one exception proves the assumption wrong.
He's my exception, the Dalli Lamma. Therefore he's wrong.
Some religions promote hate, fine I'll accept that, but the blanket statements that they all do is wrong.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Hey as long as someone's not telling me what to do based on their beliefs, I have no problem with religion.

See that's where I stand as well. Cheese probably claims to have that belief as well, but still comes on here preaching about how religion is wrong and we should all be humanists.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

First of all, I'm not a religious type, I'm a tollerant type, I don't care what people think but I hate it when others think they are above everyone else because of their belifs. Whether their beliefs are religios our atheist, I don't care, just don't push it on me or anyone else, and don't think you're better because of it and we'll have no problem. Truth be told, me beliefs problay aren't that far from Cheeses, and the only part I take exception with is his "I need to prove that what you belive is wrong" attitude.

As for acknowleging the norm, Cheese made a blanket statement that relgion promotes hate. He also claims to hold to the scientific method which is one exception proves the assumption wrong.
He's my exception, the Dalli Lamma. Therefore he's wrong.
Some religions promote hate, fine I'll accept that, but the blanket statements that they all do is wrong.

Well I was under the impression that science was used to determine a pattern and establish the norm, but I could be wrong. That being said, there are exceptions that science can't account for and that's what faith is based on, correct?

I wasn't calling you the "religious type". It just seems so common to see those with blind faith say 'See, there's an exception, so you're wrong and I'm right.' I think religion is good for some people, but I also think it lulls people into not believing what's right in front of them.

Plus you get all the weirdos who think they see Jesus in a **** stain on a concrete wall...

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Fine the Qu'aran promotes hate. I suppose some religions promote hate. But I still would like an example from Cheese as to the Pope preaching hate, and the Dalli Lama.

He's generalizing with his Religions teach hate. You've proven that I was wrong about Islam (I suppose they are evil ).

I'm pretty sure I can prove that Cheese's blanket statment about religion is wrong as well with my two examples.

That's where the problem lies, I'm willing to let others be in their beliefs, I'll accept that people can have fait and believe in whatever they want, including thinking that there is no God. Unlike Cheese seems to think he's better than everyone who believes in "fairy tales" because he's a humanist.

Wow you stretch so far Im surprised they havent made a movie about you, called the rubber man or something.
As to the Pope...or Popes....maybe you should ask Gay people if the Pope and his church love them? How about Divorcees? How about the FACT he espouses the "Hell" theory? Is there more you want? Theres literally hundreds of factual stories out there on the evil things Popes and the Catholic religion have done in order to ensure it continued as the preeminent religion. Do some research on your own...Im tired of holding your hand.
The FACT I dont like Christianity, or any other mainstream religion does not mean I do not like the Christians or other isms themselves...how boorish of you to suggest otherwise.

[greasesuck]

Thats interesting, I have the Quran with me and I can't find most quotes. how interesting. The quotes are pretty vague, of course you will go to hell if you don't follow god, thats said in every religion out there.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Just because you think something is wrong doesn't mean you are preaching hate towards it.
The standard point of the catholic church has always been hate the sin, not the sinner, and encourages people to forgive those who ahve sinned be it being gay, or whatever else the chuch deems to be wrong.
As to the hell bit, just because you say someone is going to be punished if they don't change doesn't mean you're preaching hate against them.
I think litterers should be punished, but that doesn't mean I think everyone should hate them. If it's boorish for me to suggest you don't like Catholics, why is it perfectly fine for you to suggest that the church preaches hate against those they disagree with, or is this just another example of what appears to be the humanis attitude of condemning people for doing exactly what it is you yourself do?

As for some of the horrible things in the catholic's church's past, I'm fully aware of them, in fact i alluded to that in a previous post. But again, those acts were abuses that did not follow the spirit or modern teachings of the church.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Just because you think something is wrong doesn't mean you are preaching hate towards it.
The standard point of the catholic church has always been hate the sin, not the sinner, and encourages people to forgive those who ahve sinned be it being gay, or whatever else the chuch deems to be wrong.
As to the hell bit, just because you say someone is going to be punished if they don't change doesn't mean you're preaching hate against them.
I think litterers should be punished, but that doesn't mean I think everyone should hate them. If it's boorish for me to suggest you don't like Catholics, why is it perfectly fine for you to suggest that the church preaches hate against those they disagree with, or is this just another example of what appears to be the humanis attitude of condemning people for doing exactly what it is you yourself do?

As for some of the horrible things in the catholic's church's past, I'm fully aware of them, in fact i alluded to that in a previous post. But again, those acts were abuses that did not follow the spirit or modern teachings of the church.

The fact is, the Catholic church harboured the offenses and offenders. By doing this, they are guilty of condoning the actions.