The Gospel according to Judas

[HockeyPuck]

Originally Posted by troutman

http://www.skepdic.com/faith.html

Those of us who are atheists, and believe that everything evolved from natural forces, nearly universally maintain that theists and supernaturalists have a very weak case for their belief, weaker even than the case for Bigfoot, Nessie or Santa Claus. Thus, our disbelief is not an act of faith, and therefore, not non-rational as are those of theists and Christian apologists. However, if Christian apologists insist on claiming that their version of Christianity and the rejections of their views are equally acts of faith, I will insist that the apologists have a non-rational faith, while their opponents have a rational faith. Though I think it would be less dishonest and less misleading to admit that atheists and naturalists do not base their beliefs on faith in any sense close to that of religious faith.

How come theists have a weak case for their belief? How come atheists have a stronger case? Believing in evolution requires just as much faith as believing in creationism. Evolutionists say, but we have science on our side! I thought true science is observing the thing being studied and then making conclusions and inferences. IMO, the whole basis of evolution requires faith.

Atheism takes out accountability to a deity and therefore man's conscience is cleared - he lives the way he thinks is right - just like in the definition of religion up above.

Theists live there lives in view of a Greater Being...

Both views require faith...

[HockeyPuck]

Originally Posted by Cheese

As Ive said all along, I personally dont care how you toot your horn...just dont toot it to children as a fact. Thats where I generally get on my soapbox.

Um Cheese, when I teach my kid (when I eventually do have kids), I will share my faith with him and teach as fact - it's called having religion, having something to believe in...

Sounds like you'd enjoy communist China or the former USSR, where it was illegal to practice or proselytize a person's faith.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by HockeyPuck

How come theists have a weak case for their belief?

Because it's based on magic. I'm not saying whether it's right or wrong, but it's magic. Some people don't believe in magic.

Believing in evolution requires just as much faith as believing in creationism.

This is just simply not true. I believe in evolution because it makes sense and there is a body of evidence that suggest that it's the likely answer. It's not faith for me. It's common sense. One explanation makes sense, the other explanation does not. The only "faith" I have is that science/scientists are not under the influence of the devil.

[Alpha_Q]

Originally Posted by Buff

So you're saying that I shouldn't teach my children what I believe in, just because you refuse to believe in it?

Tell me Mr. Know it all, how am I supposed to raise my children? How am I supposed to live my life? What am I supposed to believe? I ask because apparently you don't want me or other believers to think for ourselves. You don't want us to 'corrupt' people from your 'truth'. Which is exactly what you are trying to do, you're trying to corrupt them with your conspiracy theories.

You can raise your children with whatever beliefs you have, just not with the public dollar in a public system. Public education should be a system of facts and basic common sense values while mythology should be taught as just that, mythology. As was mentioned earleir in this thread there is more evidence for a belief in Bigfoot then there is for God.
I am willing to take my son to church when he asks to go even though I'm atheist. he was attending Sunday school with his grandmother for a few months, but when coming home he wasn't asking about Jesus, he was lecturing me about sin. 6 years old is too early for that kind of worry IMO.
I try not to see religion as a shackle holding back our social and even spiritual progress, but rather as a guiding force that makes sure we continue in a positive direction toward understanding life and our role in the universe. However so much organized religion today, whether it be fundamentalists in the middle east or the severe right wing the mid-west of the USA, is too bent on restrictions and the constraining of simple human rights.
Whether my son becomes religious or not will be entirely up to him. I don't preach about non-god to him, I just hope that when he grown up he keeps his mind open to every view and is able to accept any belief system as being just as likely as his.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by HockeyPuck

Um Cheese, when I teach my kid (when I eventually do have kids), I will share my faith with him and teach as fact - it's called having religion, having something to believe in...

Sounds like you'd enjoy communist China or the former USSR, where it was illegal to practice or proselytize a person's faith.

I beleive Cheese is merely asking you to give your child a choice as to what he beleives.

[Buff]

Originally Posted by Alpha_Q

You can raise your children with whatever beliefs you have, ...

I was replying to Cheese's post where he said:

Originally Posted by Cheese

As Ive said all along, I personally dont care how you toot your horn...just dont toot it to children as a fact. Thats where I generally get on my soapbox.
Children are very impressionable and the entire Jesus myth should be taught alongside Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.

He is telling me and other Christians that he will not tolerate us teaching our own children what we believe in. Just because he doesn't believe in the truth doesn't mean he can tell me what I can and cannot teach my children.

[Buff]

I forgot to mention one thing.

Isn't it convenient that this comes out 1 week before Easter? LOL Propaganda and conspiracy theories.

[HockeyPuck]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Believing in evolution requires just as much faith as believing in creationism.

This is just simply not true.

Really? Have you seen evolution? Did you observe the Big Bang Theory? Have you seen humans evolving into a greater beings? If you have, I'd like to see your notes....

Your belief in evolution shows you are about as religious as me. There is just about as much science in evolutionary theory as there is in creationism.

[HockeyPuck]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

I beleive Cheese is merely asking you to give your child a choice as to what he beleives.

My child will have a choice - he can reject it or accept it... There's nothing wrong in sharing one's faith with another...

[HockeyPuck]

Originally Posted by Alpha_Q

You can raise your children with whatever beliefs you have, just not with the public dollar in a public system. Public education should be a system of facts and basic common sense values while mythology should be taught as just that, mythology. As was mentioned earleir in this thread there is more evidence for a belief in Bigfoot then there is for God.

Whoa, there buddy - I thought we want to teach our children science? As I mentioned above, there is as much science in evolutionary theory than creationism. Our teachers should help our children learn the scientific process - observing, reproducing the results, and making conclusions - not pushing one theory or the other (which they are doing in public schools).

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by HockeyPuck

My child will have a choice - he can reject it or accept it... There's nothing wrong in sharing one's faith with another...

Did you Baptize your child?

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Did you Baptize your child?

Oh please don't tell me that actually means something. If a child is baptized and goes out to commit mass murders, I'm fairly certain that's a choice...

A true baptism is done when a person conciously decides they are ready to give their life to God. The one done shortly after birth is only to 'protect' the child until they come of age to make their own decisions. Which they still have every right to do.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by FireFly

Oh please don't tell me that actually means something. If a child is baptized and goes out to commit mass murders, I'm fairly certain that's a choice...

A true baptism is done when a person conciously decides they are ready to give their life to God. The one done shortly after birth is only to 'protect' the child until they come of age to make their own decisions. Which they still have every right to do.

Uh...

It was just a simple question, no need to fly off the handle at me about it.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by HockeyPuck

Um Cheese, when I teach my kid (when I eventually do have kids), I will share my faith with him and teach as fact - it's called having religion, having something to believe in...

Sounds like you'd enjoy communist China or the former USSR, where it was illegal to practice or proselytize a person's faith.

Another scaremongerer...all us Atheists are Communists...LOL. You know little of what you talk about Mr Puck. Nice try though...others have too.
Feel free to teach your kids a lie...teach them whatever you want behind your "closed" doors. Once its in public...and in public schools..I will stand forth, and stand strong against your preaching. The fact we have public money going to fund religious schools now is a joke....another ancient law that needs to be broken. Unless of course you would like to even it out amongst all the religions....like Scientology, Mormonism, JWs, Occultism.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by FireFly

Oh please don't tell me that actually means something. If a child is baptized and goes out to commit mass murders, I'm fairly certain that's a choice...

A true baptism is done when a person conciously decides they are ready to give their life to God. The one done shortly after birth is only to 'protect' the child until they come of age to make their own decisions. Which they still have every right to do.

So does the child get a choice whether they "want" to be protected? Do the parents sit with this child and go through the 100s of religions and ask this child to make a choice? What if this protection fails the child and the father, mother, uncle, aunt, friend or the priest sexually or physically abuses them later? Who is to blame for the lack of protection?
What kind of protection is it exactly?

Fly...thats just about the lamest answer youve come up with...it doesnt even stand on its own merit.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Uh...

It was just a simple question, no need to fly off the handle at me about it.

Really? If it was just a question, why did you quote something about giving your child choice? By doing so, you insinuated that by baptizing the child, you leave them no choice. If that wasn't your intention, there was no need to quote the other post.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Fly...thats just about the lamest answer youve come up with...it doesnt even stand on its own merit.

How so? Were you baptized Cheese? If so, do you feel you were not given choice in your religion simply because of the baptism?

Do you feel that by baptizing a child at birth you are giving them no freedom to make their own choice in regards to religion for the rest of their life? Wouldn't that be against what we received when we 'ate the apple of knowledge', which is to say that we have the ability to question and learn on our own seperate from God? By having no choice, do we not fly in the face of the freedom of choice God gave us? How about you ask my non-believing sister who was also baptized whether or not she feels it hindered her choices in life? Not only that, she even went through Confirmation and still chooses an alternate route!

Perhaps it's not my response that's weak, perhaps it was the question.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by HockeyPuck

Really? Have you seen evolution? Did you observe the Big Bang Theory? Have you seen humans evolving into a greater beings? If you have, I'd like to see your notes....

Your belief in evolution shows you are about as religious as me. There is just about as much science in evolutionary theory as there is in creationism.

No I wasn't around for the big bang, but I've seen plenty of evidence for evolution. Like I said, it's not faith. It's common sense. Certainly there are things I don't understand about it, but looking for answers and trying to figure it out just seems a lot more reasonable to me than saying that an invisible man in the sky did it.

What do you mean by creationism? That's a pretty loaded term. Are you talking about the whole Adam/Eve and 6000 years old business? If you think there is as much "science" in that as there is in evolutionary theory, I'd like to see your notes.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by FireFly

How so? Were you baptized Cheese? If so, do you feel you were not given choice in your religion simply because of the baptism?

Do you feel that by baptizing a child at birth you are giving them no freedom to make their own choice in regards to religion for the rest of their life?
Perhaps it's not my response that's weak, perhaps it was the question.

LOL...why bother? You didnt answer the question McFly...what is the protection then? Why bother? Let me guess...so Gramma and Grandpa and uncle and aunt or mom and dad can suggest to the child later that they are "falling out of the light" if that child chooses to ignore that chosen path? Cmon...I have hundreds of friends, and so do you, who have had to deal with that inner pressure from family who demands they stay within the confines of the "chosen religion" or flavor of the day so to speak. Its NOT about choice whatsoever.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by FireFly

Really? If it was just a question, why did you quote something about giving your child choice? By doing so, you insinuated that by baptizing the child, you leave them no choice. If that wasn't your intention, there was no need to quote the other post.

I quote posts so people know who they are directed at. I also try not to put words in other peoples mouths or assume their motivations.

I don't really know who Hockeypuck is, or what they plan to do with their child, I ask questions, get answers and formulate opinions with information. Cheese is leaning in the direction I was talking about, I have friends who have been rejected by their families for not taking on the religion. My grandfather did not get an inheritance which was supposed to be divided between him and his brothers because he was not a JW. He then recieved a lot of flak when he got a blood transfusion as well, which saved his life. It involved over 20 years of not even speaking with his older brother.

I don't have some hate for religion FireFly, I am asking questions, I'm not telling you what you should beleive in.