Iraq at civil war!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[CalgaryCowboy]

Why is there always a connection between freedom and democracy? You can have one without the other. There have not been to many non-democratic systems that have not been totalatarian (sp) but it is possible. If people chose to live in a communist state or have a king that is thier right. Democracy is not perfect and there have been many examples of it breaking down or failing. The present problems in Iraq have as much to do with what Saddam did and with what the US did with sanctions and bombs. Iraq went from being one of the most educated and progressive middle eastern countried to third world status. In Cuba people are suffering from the economic state more than the lack of democracy caused by the imbargo.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by CalgaryCowboy

Why is there always a connection between freedom and democracy? You can have one without the other. There have not been to many non-democratic systems that have not been totalatarian (sp) but it is possible. If people chose to live in a communist state or have a king that is thier right. Democracy is not perfect and there have been many examples of it breaking down or failing. The present problems in Iraq have as much to do with what Saddam did and with what the US did with sanctions and bombs. Iraq went from being one of the most educated and progressive middle eastern countried to third world status. In Cuba people are suffering from the economic state more than the lack of democracy caused by the imbargo.

Great point. Freedom is subjective. To Americans, not living under the Stars and Stripes is not tasting freedom. To other people, living in the United States IS living under a totalitarian regime. Its all what you point of reference is. Who says that America has the right to tell anyone else how to govern their country. My god, the Bush Administration has restricted so many freedoms since entering office that the country is not even recognizable. If someone left the country in 2000 and returned today, they would not even recognize what the United States has come to. The present administration has condoned lying (faulty intelligence for Iraq, sworn to in the UN GA), torture (Abu Grahib and black sites), corruption (Halliburton, Enron, Abramoff), treason (Valerie Plame), and abandoned its own people (Katrina) all while trying to nation build elsewhere. American "democracy" is broken. They are the last nation on earth that should be attempting to export that commodity.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by mbrown

Well I gave you Japan, it worked there. You have been telling me that it was 'different' or whatever, but point in fact, you are asking me this:

It has been addressed numerous times -- Japan is not a valid comparison. The situations are not even remotely similar.

Do you have anything better than "it happened in Japan" and "Iraq will work"? One statement is irrelevant, the other sounds like nothing more than wishful thinking.

Maybe there is a case to be made about democracy in Iraq and George's Big Idea but you sure aren't making it.

[CalgaryCowboy]

The present way of doing things are not working in Iraq. In Afganastan things are going a bit better but under different circumstances. In Iraq they may be done with Sadams oppression but are in way worse situation economicly, socially, heath, security than when he was around. Until those basics are addressed the whole issue of democracy are secondary.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by CalgaryCowboy

The present way of doing things are not working in Iraq.

Here's an example of why (video):

http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/news;_ylt=AvAktbzZy9rx6A9zTdyjvfZg.3QA;_ylu=X3oDMT BhNXIwMGFqBHNlYwN2cHJvbW8-?ch=68276&cl=329564','playerWindow','width=793,hei ght=608,scrollbars=no

It's hard to build trust, which democracy is based on, when things like this are happening. It's not the first alleged massacre either, and if only a fraction turn out to be true, then I don't see how democracy will win over.

[CalgaryCowboy]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Here's an example of why (video):

http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/news;_ylt=AvAktbzZy9rx6A9zTdyjvfZg.3QA;_ylu=X3oDMT BhNXIwMGFqBHNlYwN2cHJvbW8-?ch=68276&cl=329564','playerWindow','width=793,hei ght=608,scrollbars=no

It's hard to build trust, which democracy is based on, when things like this are happening. It's not the first alleged massacre either, and if only a fraction turn out to be true, then I don't see how democracy will win over.

Even worse than this is the aligations of Iraqi death squads, corrupt police and officials. Democracy will never take hold if they cannot trust thier own people.

[mbrown]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Uh huh, and the Wahabists from Saudi Arabia are having their influence too. Oh, and you left out the Kurds from Turkey. What's your point? People need to understand what democracy is, how it works, and what their role is, before the mechanism works. You just don't drop a car off in the middle of the Amazon and think that the isolated indians of the region are going to hop right in and drive the thing away. The culture has not point of reference and has not idea what the democratic system is. Casting a vote and getting purple ink on your finger is NOT democracy in action. What is happening in Iraq is nothing more than a theocratic tribal war, directed by the imams, done under the guise of a fake vote. You could ask any of the people that voted what exactly they just cast their vote for and they would not be able to convey their reason. They'll give you the theocratic talking point, as given to them by their imam, but they have no idea what they actually just voted on. Comprehension of action is the first step towards a democracy.

So you're saying that Iraqi's aren't capable of democracy? Is that what you're saying? You're comparing them to hunter/gatherer's?
Nice that you have done research..

[mbrown]

Originally Posted by CalgaryCowboy

Why is there always a connection between freedom and democracy? You can have one without the other. There have not been to many non-democratic systems that have not been totalatarian (sp) but it is possible. If people chose to live in a communist state or have a king that is thier right. Democracy is not perfect and there have been many examples of it breaking down or failing. The present problems in Iraq have as much to do with what Saddam did and with what the US did with sanctions and bombs. Iraq went from being one of the most educated and progressive middle eastern countried to third world status. In Cuba people are suffering from the economic state more than the lack of democracy caused by the imbargo.

oh... An expert on Cuba now. Awesome.
'Democracy is the worst system in the world, except for everything else that's been tried.' WC

[mbrown]

"To other people, living in the United States IS living under a totalitarian regime."

oh my.. there's a balanced view point. Yeah, that's why all the refugee boats are loaded up in Miami and try to flee to Cuba.. oh! wait a minute..
freedom is not 'subjective'. Freedom is freedom.

If people don't like the US they can leave. Alot of people in Canada are so spiled and smug that they have no idea what freedom is and you really can't have an idea of what it is unless you have experienced it's opposite. So stop with the smug comparison's of freedom.

[mbrown]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

It has been addressed numerous times -- Japan is not a valid comparison. The situations are not even remotely similar.

Do you have anything better than "it happened in Japan" and "Iraq will work"? One statement is irrelevant, the other sounds like nothing more than wishful thinking.

Maybe there is a case to be made about democracy in Iraq and George's Big Idea but you sure aren't making it.

Look, the question was, Democracy can't be forced on a society, and I said it could. Yes, Japan is different from Iraq, but regardelss, I answered the question asked.

I think Iraq will work and I think it is working now. It's far from perfect, but the government will be in session in April. A Freely elected government. The insurgents know this and are getting increasingly desperate. The troops will begin a gradual pull out starting this summer.

I have no more 'proof' that it is working other than reading beyond the headlines. New schools and hospitals being built do not make the news. Bombs do. Alot of what we see is the selling of newspapers too.

[mbrown]

Originally Posted by CalgaryCowboy

The present way of doing things are not working in Iraq. In Afganastan things are going a bit better but under different circumstances. In Iraq they may be done with Sadams oppression but are in way worse situation economicly, socially, heath, security than when he was around. Until those basics are addressed the whole issue of democracy are secondary.

How is Afghanistan different from Iraq?

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by mbrown

So you're saying that Iraqi's aren't capable of democracy? Is that what you're saying? You're comparing them to hunter/gatherer's?
Nice that you have done research..

Where's all the research you've got to back your point of view that 'forcing' democracy upon Iraq will work and is working? What are your sources? Calgary Sun? You seem to be pointing out a generalization when your 'arguments' are rife with them.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by mbrown

"To other people, living in the United States IS living under a totalitarian regime."

oh my.. there's a balanced view point. Yeah, that's why all the refugee boats are loaded up in Miami and try to flee to Cuba.. oh! wait a minute..
freedom is not 'subjective'. Freedom is freedom.

If people don't like the US they can leave. Alot of people in Canada are so spiled and smug that they have no idea what freedom is and you really can't have an idea of what it is unless you have experienced it's opposite. So stop with the smug comparison's of freedom.

That's right, you don't know anything about it until you've lived on both sides of the fence. The grass is always greener. Well I HAVE lived on both sides of the fence and I can say that things are not at all the way the media machine makes it out to be here in the United States. It is not all roses and this country (the US) does have significant problems. Canada is superior in almost every way imaginable. The only thing that keeps me from going back is my wife, the weather, and a job I could never get in Canada.

Fredom is indeed subjective. What is considered freedom to one man is not freedom to another. A native American constitutes freedom through his connection to the land and living in harmony with the land. Certain folks in the United States believe that freedom exists through gun ownership. Others believe that freedom exists through their ability to cast a vote. Freedom is different to each and every person on this planet and is dependent on their frame of reference. YOU cannot tell me what freedom is, just like I cannot tell you what freedom is. It is personal and only something inside each individual defines freedom.

You're little story of Cuba is so uninformed its not even funny. Yes, refugees leave Cuba for the United States, believing that they will face a much better life, but once they get to America they quickly find out it is not as the had hoped. The Cuban population in Florida is very disgruntled with the way things operate in the State and country itself, and are doing what they can to make changes. But of course that is not covered in the media, and neither is the story of people voluntarily returning to Cuba. And most disturbingly is the lack of coverage on the real story behind the refugee issue, the blockade. This is the base problem for the refugee issue as well as the troubles Cuba faces itself. But why would I expect you to understand this issue either? You're black and white view on issues does not allow you to look into the multi-dimensions of the problems and find the root causes.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by mbrown

So you're saying that Iraqi's aren't capable of democracy? Is that what you're saying? You're comparing them to hunter/gatherer's?
Nice that you have done research..

We are all hunters/gatherers in our own ways. Society defines exactly what we hunt and what we gather, so stowe your sociology 101 crap and try to remain on topic. Don't open yourself up to further ridicule by moving into topics you obviously know nothing about.

So far you have posted NOTHING to backup your argument. You have attempted to dodge the points made by others by waiving your arms wildly and pointing elsewhere. Why is that? Why are you not arguing the points made? Why are you not answering to the non-secular control that prevents democracy from taking place? When are you going to school us all on how democracy works? When are going to explain how America was able to make a democracy work in Japan (I know, do you?) and how that same plan is not possible in the middle east? I noticed you point to Japan as the big success (the country was already headed in that direction prior to the war) but what about all the other nation building exercises the United States failed at in Central and South America? Why was democracy a failue in the other countries America meddled in? Why ignore those? We're waiting!!! Come on buddy, when is school in?

Originally Posted by mbrown

I think Iraq will work and I think it is working now. It's far from perfect, but the government will be in session in April. A Freely elected government. The insurgents know this and are getting increasingly desperate. The troops will begin a gradual pull out starting this summer.

I have no more 'proof' that it is working other than reading beyond the headlines. New schools and hospitals being built do not make the news. Bombs do. Alot of what we see is the selling of newspapers too.

So when the "elected" (err, appointed by the United States) President of Iraq states the country is at civil war, democracy is working? And new schools and hospitals are being built that don't make the news? Funny, neither do the 11 major US military installations that have been built and are now operational in Iraq. Go figure. You mean that billion and a half dollars a day ARE building something, but nothing that actually helps the people.

BTW, I really want people to understand what a billion dollars will buy. Here in Phoenix there is a project underway that is widening a major traffic corridor (from three to five lanes in each direction) and finishing off a secondary loop including a massive interchange. This will add close to an extra 150 miles of surface expressway. It will close to double capacity that may travel in the east valley affecting a million and half to two million people. This three year project comes in at just under $750 million dollars. What is spent in Iraq in just over half a day could pay for this whole infrastructure upgrade that affects the TAX PAYING CITIZENS of THIS country. And who says democracy is working in the United States?

Originally Posted by mbrown

How is Afghanistan different from Iraq?

Hmmm, different culture. Different ethnic makeup. Different educational level. Different economy. Different values. Different history.

[mbrown]

"You're little story of Cuba is so uninformed its not even funny. Yes, refugees leave Cuba for the United States, believing that they will face a much better life, but once they get to America they quickly find out it is not as the had hoped. The Cuban population in Florida is very disgruntled with the way things operate in the State and country itself, and are doing what they can to make changes. But of course that is not covered in the media, and neither is the story of people voluntarily returning to Cuba. And most disturbingly is the lack of coverage on the real story behind the refugee issue, the blockade. This is the base problem for the refugee issue as well as the troubles Cuba faces itself. But why would I expect you to understand this issue either? You're black and white view on issues does not allow you to look into the multi-dimensions of the problems and find the root causes."

So you have no problem with Castro killing reporters? YOu might have heard about it if you were paying attention. But yeah, reporters are put to death by Bush too, so who cares right? haha

[mbrown]

Ok Lanny. you're right everyone else is wrong

better?

[mbrown]

So do you think that the turnout for the Iraqi elections was low?

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by mbrown

So you have no problem with Castro killing reporters? YOu might have heard about it if you were paying attention. But yeah, reporters are put to death by Bush too, so who cares right? haha

And you may be full of ****. No, it turns out you ARE full of ****. No reporter has been killed in Cuba since 1958, a year before Castro took power. Reporters have been kicked out of the country, but no reporter has been killed.

http://www.ipsnews.net/print.asp?idnews=20188

Thanks for playing.

Originally Posted by mbrown

Ok Lanny. you're right everyone else is wrong

better?

No, everyone is NOT wrong, YOU are.

Originally Posted by mbrown

So do you think that the turnout for the Iraqi elections was low?

It was fantastic, but it was not democracy in action. People had no idea what they were voting for. People voted the way their imam told them to vote. To have a functioning democracy the people voting must understand the issues and have an idea of the ramifications of the vote they cast. Without this knowledge, with outside interference and with the influence of others with personal motivations, the vote is irrelevant. Democracy does not function with interference. Add in the lack of control mechanisms and what took place in Iraq is not democracy in an shape or form. It was a sham that was orchestrated to make the rest of the world believe that democracy could indeed could work. As has been pointed out by the President himself, the civil war proves that democracy did not indeed take place and that the exercise has been an utter failure.

Again, thanks for playing.

[mbrown]

I remembered death sentence, but 27 years? in 2003? play again Lanny:

"
It was a grim year for press freedom in Cuba. A total of 27 journalists were arrested and sentenced to long prison terms in the course of a crackdown on dissent. Thereafter, they were held in conditions which their families described as inhumane. Fellow journalists who remained at large ran the risk of suffering the same fate.
In Cuba, 2003 will go down in history as a black year for press freedom and civil liberties in general. President Fidel Castro launched an unprecedented wave of arrests on 18 March, on the eve of the US attack on Iraq, jailing a total of 75 dissidents. They included human rights activists, trade unionists and peaceful political campaigners, as well as 27 independent journalists.
The journalists were given sentences ranging from 14 to 27 years in prison in summary trials that denied them the right of defence. They were convicted under Law 88 or article 91 of the criminal code. Law 88 protects Cuba’s "independence and economy." It punishes "subversive activities" that further US "imperialist interests." This includes working for foreign news media. Article 91 punishes "actions against Cuba’s independence and territorial integrity."
For the most part, the journalists were accused of collaborating with the United States by writing articles that gave a different view of Cuba from that served up in the official press. Their reports were usually about the (not officially recognised) opposition, human rights violations or Cuban daily life. They were also accused of visiting the US interests section (the substitute for an embassy), which President Castro has branded as the "headquarters of domestic counter-revolution" although he has never closed it down.
The prosecution witnesses included known independent journalists Nestor Baguer and Manuel David Orrio who turned out to agents of the Directorate for State Security (the political police) who had been infiltrated into the independent press. "Subversive material" confiscated during extensive searches of the journalists homes - typewriters, computers, paper, pens and tape-recorders - was produced in evidence.
Shortly after being convicted at the start of April, the journalists and all the other detained dissidents were sent to prisons often hundreds of kilometres from their homes. Forced to undertake long and expensive journeys in order to visit them, their families complained of "a second sentence." The prisoners received the harshest treatment provided by Cuba’s prisons and were allowed only one family visit every three months (instead of every three weeks).
Several staged hunger strikes in protest against the conditions : the lack of hygiene (cells infested by rats and cockroaches), the lack of medical care, the revolting food, the lack of access to water and the interception of their mail. Some, such as Oscar Espinosa Chepe, were seriously ill. Their treatment was "in accordance with the Revolution’s humanistic ethics," said Cuba’s ambassador to Paris. In a show of protest, the wives of some 30 dissidents silently marched each Sunday outside Saint Rita’s church in Havana, dressed in black or white. They were often threatened because of this.
The March 2003 crackdown was surprising for both its scale and timing. Cuba seemed to be on the point of benefiting from the Cotonou Accords, under which 77 African, Caribbean and Pacific countries, the so-called ACP Group, receive economic aid and preferential trade relations with the European Union. The crackdown came at a moment when a small but growing sector of the population was refusing to carry on living in fear. They were just a handful 10 years ago. Now there are now several hundred active dissidents throughout the country."

Now who is the person who doesn';t know what they are talking about.

You know, all I need to know is that the same person who says democracy will never work in Iraq thinks Cuba is fien as it is and that the US is tyrannical. That tells me all I need to know.

Thanks for playing. let me know when you live on the same planet and have a little education behind your blatherings.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Where's all the research you've got to back your point of view that 'forcing' democracy upon Iraq will work and is working? What are your sources? Calgary Sun? You seem to be pointing out a generalization when your 'arguments' are rife with them.

That's what I thought.