American Gov't Arrests Canadian - Page 3 - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

oldschoolcalgary · 03-15-2006, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Sure, people can change. But I do make a distinction between someone agrees to something and then neglects their duty, and someone who refuses on moral ground to take on the duty to begin with.

When he enlisted, he agreed to fulfill a duty to his country. Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I believe that fulfilling one's duty is important.

Now someone who is drafted, and resists has more sympathy in my book. Excersising one's free choice is a basic right IMO, and I certainly would not accept being drafted into a war I did not believe in.

I guess the closest analogy I can think of is someone who agrees to have a child, but then runs away from the resposibility after they find parenthood is not for them. It's totally different than if someone decides not to have children, but is forced to take one.

If this man was drafted, (which the article doesn't say), then I can sympathize with him more. Not everyone can muster the courage to say "no". But if he voluntarily signed up, then he should have refused to go to war and dealt with the consequences.

Well, certainly, it is a touchy subject, and I appreciate your thoughtful commentary, in what could easily become a heated debate.

Don't know the reasons as to why he enlisted, and then decided to run...for those in Iraq, who actually go overseas, I can understand it as they might have seen things there that changed their minds...things are a lot difference being there and watching on TV.

Now that being said, one of the reasons I believe it is a "red herring" is that many believe, rightly or wrongly, that the timing of this arrest isn't a result of simply following the law. Rather, that the arrest is a political move meant to frighten those who are resisting the "stop loss" strategy currently being used by the US military as a result of the growing difficulties in recruiting.

oldschoolcalgary · 03-15-2006, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by STeeLy

The two world wars and the vietnam war are two completely different things. First of all, the World Wars was more about containment, trying to stop Hitler's advance into other nations, while the Vietnam war was to stop the spread of communism. Hitler only conquered terrority for living space for his people. While more of the Asian countries rebel forces stage takeovers and establish a communist government.

When Hitler invaded Austria, its true, the rationalization was simply "bringing back" a part of Germany that had been lost...most countries stood back, hoping that Austria would be all Hitler wanted. Unfortunately, Nazi germany continued with its invasions into other countries, not simply for additional space, but rather as a conquering nation. Other countries saw this threat and stepped into the breach.

the irony that i see is that Vietnam was predicated on the idea of the so called "domino effect", where the US believed that Communism would spread throughout SE Asia if Vietnam fell to the communist...As history has bourne out, this "domino effect" never happened...

Ironically, the hawks in the adminstration used the same rationalization as an end goal of the Iraq war...that freedom would spread throughout the middle east...on paper, that sounds lovely...the reality? I guess we'll find out in 10-20 years...

Aegypticus · 03-15-2006, 01:51 AM

I think that if someone decides after they have enlisted that they really don't want to kill someone or risk their own life, then let them be. That's the way I would want to be treated.

As a young person, I feel I accurately represent at least a small portion of my demographic and the attitude today. If I found out I was going to war as a member of the military on the orders of the government, I would say !@#$ my duty, !@#$ my responsibility, !@#$ my commitments, and !@#$ my country. I'm out to save my own ass. Everyone else and their opinions be damned, I'm going to live.

Vulcan · 03-15-2006, 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azure

Do you even understand what duty is?

If you had relatives that have served in the military from as far back as I can think, you would probably understand. I do not like war, but if someone enlists they should serve that to which they are held responsible.

I understand what duty is and it's not to be a pawn and kill women and children in Viet Nam.
On your level I also understand the military a small bit from at one being a Canadian reservest. I'm not against the military, I'm against politicians sending young men and women off to fight wars of agression for nebulous reasons. I support our troops in Afganistan, I don't support the American government in Iraq. Lots of people agree and lots don't but the Canadian government and I support the draft dodgers and deserters from the Viet Nam era. They are now Canadian citizens.

Azure · 03-15-2006, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aegypticus

I think that if someone decides after they have enlisted that they really don't want to kill someone or risk their own life, then let them be. That's the way I would want to be treated.

As a young person, I feel I accurately represent at least a small portion of my demographic and the attitude today. If I found out I was going to war as a member of the military on the orders of the government, I would say !@#$ my duty, !@#$ my responsibility, !@#$ my commitments, and !@#$ my country. I'm out to save my own ass. Everyone else and their opinions be damned, I'm going to live.

Its a good thing all those Canadian troops in both the world wars thought as you did, eh?

Azure · 03-15-2006, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vulcan

I understand what duty is and it's not to be a pawn and kill women and children in Viet Nam.
On your level I also understand the military a small bit from at one being a Canadian reservest. I'm not against the military, I'm against politicians sending young men and women off to fight wars of agression for nebulous reasons. I support our troops in Afganistan, I don't support the American government in Iraq. Lots of people agree and lots don't but the Canadian government and I support the draft dodgers and deserters from the Viet Nam era. They are now Canadian citizens.

Who said anything about killing women and children in 'Nam. You're jumping to conclusions, again. Enlisting puts you into a binding contract, one that you must serve regardless of the cirumstances. I don't care if you suddenly become scared of being killed, or killing that contract must still be respected. You should know that as a Canadian reserve member, you must obey certain requirements that they ask of you. If you are not prepared to fight in a war that you feel is not politically right, or in any way right, don't enlist in the first place.

Anyone that has ever taken any sort of law, would understand what I mean with the contracts.

mykalberta · 03-15-2006, 10:50 AM

BC is full of deserters and draft dodgers. Deserters should be shot, plain and simple. If you choose the life in the military you have to live with the choice you make.

Old guys from Canada are easy targets especially if they have been travelling back and forth continually without any warning etc. They dont expect it and as such arent prepared for it.

MYK

Aegypticus · 03-15-2006, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azure

Its a good thing all those Canadian troops in both the world wars thought as you did, eh?

That was way, way before my time. I feel no connection to it, despite my grandfather fighting in WWII. I'm just being honest. It may seem insensitive or selfish, but November 11th is just another day for me.

Cowperson · 03-15-2006, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aegypticus

That was way, way before my time. I feel no connection to it, despite my grandfather fighting in WWII. I'm just being honest. It may seem insensitive or selfish, but November 11th is just another day for me.

The next time you're travelling east down Memorial Drive, note the sign on your right that says:

"These Trees Are Living Memorials Of Men Who Died For Your Freedom" and put some thought into the relative peace and prosperity you grew up in as you glance beyond that sign and continue on your way.

Just a suggestion.

Cowperson

Aegypticus · 03-15-2006, 01:28 PM

I'll give it a go, Cowperson. Are there a lot there? I rarely travel far from the SW of the city. Never heard of this memorial.

It is still hard for me to feel anything. I'll be the first to admit that I've had things pretty good. Seems to me that at least part of the goal of those soldiers was accomplished simply because I don't think about war and I don't remember war. Wasn't that the point? War isn't a part of my life today because of what they did, and I can't help but feel that this is the way things should be...

Reaper · 03-15-2006, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aegypticus

I'll give it a go, Cowperson. Are there a lot there? I rarely travel far from the SW of the city. Never heard of this memorial.

There isn't a specific memorial per se. All the trees planted along Memorial Drive are the living memorial to those fallen soldiers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aegypticus

It is still hard for me to feel anything. I'll be the first to admit that I've had things pretty good. Seems to me that at least part of the goal of those soldiers was accomplished simply because I don't think about war and I don't remember war. Wasn't that the point?

No, that wasn't "the point." You should remember and show some gratitude for what veterans of the world wars have done for your freedom. Part of the reason you have things "pretty good" is because there were men and women who stepped up to defend the freedoms enjoyed in this country.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aegypticus

War isn't a part of my life today because of what they did, and I can't help but feel that this is the way things should be...

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it - George Santayana, 1905

Aegypticus · 03-15-2006, 03:41 PM

I should remember what? I have nothing to relate it to. I don't know any vets, I don't remember conflict. I honestly cannot wrap my head around this whole "remember" thing...

I'm not even sure I ever remember even meeting a vet in my life. I know for sure nobody I have even an acquaintance with is not a vet.

CalgaryCowboy · 03-15-2006, 04:16 PM

This is about choice and consequence. He enlisted and should have performed his duty. If he could not because of a moral reason (not just being scared) then he could have refused and been discharged or imprisoned. He fled and the result was he could not return to the US. He did and now he will have to face the consequences. I don't blame him for his choices or the US government for theirs.

Aegypticus I hope your "me first" attitude is not representive of your peers. I am 35 and never have know war either but have great regard for all veterans. As a citizen of Canada you have great rights but also responsibilities. You have a right to disagree but you must follow the lead of a legally elected goverment or face the consequences like a man. Remember that history is the great equalizer and some day we may need other countries to sacrifice to uphold our "freedom". The majority of NA never experienced direct war. The American and Canadian mainland was never bombed or invaded. War is "hell" and should be to incourage peace lately we have been fed this idealistic, clean notion of war. I have family in the States and hate when the opposition to Iraq only started when the body count went up. If it was worth it in the beggining it is now or wasn't then either.

Aegypticus · 03-15-2006, 04:39 PM

I guess, in summation, my original point is that I agree completely with this guy. I don't care what he signed or what his reasons are, I think the rule is wrong and he should get off with no punishment. I justify it because it's what I would have done and I would be mad to be tossed in jail this long after the fact.

CalgaryCowboy · 03-15-2006, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aegypticus

I guess, in summation, my original point is that I agree completely with this guy. I don't care what he signed or what his reasons are, I think the rule is wrong and he should get off with no punishment. I justify it because it's what I would have done and I would be mad to be tossed in jail this long after the fact.

Your entitled to your opinion. In my mind laws cannot be ignored just because disagree without facing the consequences. I don't agree with the speed limit sometimes and if I get caught I just pay the fine but don't believe I am right for speeding but make a choice when doing so.

BTW- I see you are 20 yo. Not to put you down or anything but just to put into perspective where you are coming from. I definitely don't see the world the same way as I did when I was younger.

Aegypticus · 03-15-2006, 05:44 PM

Exactly...
I said earlier I'm a young person. I just find it extremely, extremely difficult to relate to anything I didn't personally experience or didn't witness in some way.
Maybe it's a sign of the times, or maybe it's just me. Just realize I'm not a sociopath, but I do look out for number one.

As an aside, one of the reasons I am really against punishment for this man is that I've seen how aggressive the army is in recruiting young people stateside. They WILL resort to outright lies and deception to have people sign up. I don't know how this relates to the practices in the days of Vietnam, but I wouldn't be surprised to hear that some things were similar.

I guess it relates to my ideology as well.

There's more I want to say, but I just can't seem to get it down right now. I feel that I can probably chalk some of my feelings up to past experiences where people I trusted completely violated that trust and took a lot out of me.

FlamesAddiction · 03-15-2006, 05:52 PM

For the record, even though I do think this man has made his own bed here, I don't believe that it serves any greater good to drag him through the mud 40 years after the fact.

Azure · 03-15-2006, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aegypticus

That was way, way before my time. I feel no connection to it, despite my grandfather fighting in WWII. I'm just being honest. It may seem insensitive or selfish, but November 11th is just another day for me.

Maybe you should go to the ceremonies someday and figure out why you enjoy the freedom you have.

Just a thought.

Vulcan · 03-15-2006, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azure

Anyone that has ever taken any sort of law, would understand what I mean with the contracts.

The American school system was full of pro war brainwashing hype, spreading into Canada as well.
Anyone who was around during the Viet Nam war knows that the American Govt, was misrepresenting and lying to it's citizens. Does this mean you're still bound by the contract?

Aegypticus · 03-15-2006, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azure

Maybe you should go to the ceremonies someday and figure out why you enjoy the freedom you have.

Just a thought.

I used to go every year. I've probably been to at least 10 of them.