Backlund and Andersson Tidbits

[Jiri Hrdina]

Backlund to me is closer to Gio. Not sure I would retire either jersey.
I would honor them in a different way (don't like the Forever a Flame thing, if you are in the rafters you are retired).

[YyjFlames]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Fair points but Nieuwendyk and MacInnis definitely don’t count, imo. And the math is off a bit.

The franchise has been around for 53 years. 6 retirements in that time (counting Gaudreau and Backlund) is already only one every 8.8 years. By the time they’re both actually retired, we’re probably looking at closer to 58-60 years, or near one every 10 years.

And, given that they’re both exceptional circumstances unlikely to be repeated any time soon (for one, hopefully ever), I think that’s more than fair.

What would be the next one? Parekh if we’re lucky in 20+ years?

I think the ratio is just fine now, and I respect your opinion on maintaining something close to that, but not at the expense of honouring players under exceptional circumstances.

Honouring Backlund isn’t a celebration of the teams he played on or the success of the franchise, it’s about his contributions to the team and the city. If those don’t qualify as special I’m not sure what does.

Backlund is a lot like Chris Phillips, and Phillips retirement is a bit of a head scratcher compared to most other retired numbers. Great people. Played only on one team. Awesome community guys. Solid above average on-ice contributions, especially on the defensive side... but they're not the typical guys teams retire.

I like Backlund a lot, but I'm not sure he nor the team did enough on the ice during his tenure to retire him. Maybe they'll win him a Stanley Cup in the next few years while he's still playing. I could see it then.

[EVERLAST]

Just me but #11s have been great players offer some good memories but guys i remember more wearing #11 going back a ways for me were

YELLE( sandbox)
NOLAN
PATTERSON
MacMillan

No offense but they all did more memorable stuff than our current captain in my eyes .

One guy even has 3 cups to his name even if the NHL doesnt recognize the 3rd but they can go pound salt, pee up a rope as far as i concerned .

[theslymonkey]

Backs is easily one of my favourites, but there is no way his jersey should be retired.
He's in the same category as Gio. Exceptional team guy, held in high regard, should be honoured, but not retired.

[theslymonkey]

I should add...

I don't think Johnny should be retired either. I did last summer, but now looking at it pragmatically, I think he's in the same category as Suter.
Great players are allowed to play here without jersey retirement.
9, 30, 12, 34, (14) That's it for now.

[IamNotKenKing]

Originally Posted by EVERLAST

Just me but #11s have been great players offer some good memories but guys i remember more wearing #11 going back a ways for me were

YELLE( sandbox)
NOLAN
PATTERSON
MacMillan

No offense but they all did more memorable stuff than our current captain in my eyes .

One guy even has 3 cups to his name even if the NHL doesnt recognize the 3rd but they can go pound salt, pee up a rope as far as i concerned .

You should get laser surgery then...

[browna]

Yes if guys like Nieuwendyk and Mullen etc aren’t in the rafters as a jersey retirement, nor should he be.
Longevity doesn’t equal automatic jersey enshrinement.

And, he wanted out that year after making the playoffs under Sutter…and came back because Sutter was gone, and he was named captain as he wished to be have named earlier, but Darryl said no.

Assuming the Flames will be out of it at the deadline, does he help the team by getting traded for some sort of pick? With the likely assumption he signs back here next summer.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by EVERLAST

Just me but #11s have been great players offer some good memories but guys i remember more wearing #11 going back a ways for me were

YELLE( sandbox)
NOLAN
PATTERSON
MacMillan

No offense but they all did more memorable stuff than our current captain in my eyes .

One guy even has 3 cups to his name even if the NHL doesnt recognize the 3rd but they can go pound salt, pee up a rope as far as i concerned .

You remember over the hill Owen Nolan’s one 32 point season here more than Backlund?

Come on now

[Finger Cookin]

Originally Posted by Funkhouser

Now I know it is hard to compare eras

Please, don't let that stop you

Originally Posted by Funkhouser

...but I find it embarrassing to amplify the success of a club that has won 1 stanley cup, and has not proceeded past the second round in 20+ years over a club who has won 24 cups

It's almost like it's harder to win in an era with 20-30 teams when you also don't hold a monopoly on players from your home province than it was when there were only six ####ing teams

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by browna

Yes if guys like Nieuwendyk and Mullen etc aren’t in the rafters as a jersey retirement, nor should he be.
Longevity doesn’t equal automatic jersey enshrinement.

I don’t think anybody has argued longevity should be automatic. It’s just part of what makes him deserving. I think reducing it to that ignores the more important stuff.

If Lanny’s is up there it’s tough to make an argument the bar should be all that high.

[HOOT]

Originally Posted by Funkhouser

Now I know it is hard to compare eras, but I find it embarrassing to amplify the success of a club that has won 1 stanley cup, and has not proceeded past the second round in 20+ years over a club who has won 24 cups.

Or things have changed when it comes to honoring players who played in the league. I think most people realize in a 32 team league winning the Cup is more luck than a single player's skill. One player can only do so much with their ice time, ask McDavid.

There has been 175 jersey retirements in the NHL and only six had their jersey retired in the first 43 years of the league, 11 in the first 60 of the league. The next 48 years? 164! That's 94% of all jersey retirements in the last half century.

Since the year 2000, when 99 was retired around the league, there have been 118 retired jerseys. Over 2/3rd of all jersey retirements have happened in the past quarter century.

Does Backlund deserve the honor? Probably not, as he isn't a household name outside of Calgary. But I don't think percentage of years a team is in the league to amount of player jersey retirements is the best way to decide if a team is honoring too many people.

[YyjFlames]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I don’t think anybody has argued longevity should be automatic. It’s just part of what makes him deserving. I think reducing it to that ignores the more important stuff.

If Lanny’s is up there it’s tough to make an argument the bar should be all that high.

Sorry… what? If hall of famer, Stanley cup winning, point per game scoring, inspirational and classiest man in hockey, whose name is synonymous with the Calgary Flames is up there, then Backlund’s should be too?

Come on.

[Draug]

Originally Posted by HOOT

Or things have changed when it comes to honoring players who played in the league. One player can only do so much with their ice time, ask McDavid.

There has been 175 jersey retirements in the NHL and only six had their jersey retired in the first 43 years of the league, 11 in the first 60 of the league. The next 48 years? 164! That's 94% of all jersey retirements in the last half century.

Since the year 2000, when 99 was retired around the league, there have been 118 retired jerseys. Over 2/3rd of all jersey retirements have happened in the past quarter century.

Since 2000, of those 118, how many are Cup Champs?

IF, and ONLY IF, Backlund retires a Flame, I'd be in favor of his Flames jersey being retired. It's more about what a player for his franchise and community, than it is about what he does amongst the entire hockey landscape.

What a player does relative to every other elite hockey player on the planet is what the Hockey Hall of Fame is for.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by YyjFlames

Sorry… what? If hall of famer, Stanley cup winning, point per game scoring, inspirational and classiest man in hockey, whose name is synonymous with the Calgary Flames is up there, then Backlund’s should be too?

Come on.

Lanny is not the classiest guy in hockey. And his big years outside of his 66 goal year were all with the Leafs.

He had great PR here though.

[konradical]

I mean if Backlund finishes top all time in games played, top 5 in points that comes pretty close in a vacuum. Maybe some success comes within the next 3 years who knows. I think he is closer to jersey retired then people think. I can see both sides, and dont mind either decision.

I think he is a great player and great off ice person. I dont mind having this local legend with his number retire as long as it is limited to one person.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by YyjFlames

Sorry… what? If hall of famer, Stanley cup winning, point per game scoring, inspirational and classiest man in hockey, whose name is synonymous with the Calgary Flames is up there, then Backlund’s should be too?

Come on.

Not necessarily. But if you isolate his contributions to just what he achieved with the Flames, there’s an argument to be made that the bar isn’t as high as we might think (or at least that being “elite” is less relevant than contributions to the team beyond the ice, or the “total package”)

Of players who played more than 400 games:
17th in P/GP (same as Reichel, below Tkachuk, Chouinard, Gaudreau, etc)
5th in G/GP (similar to Roberts, Loob, Fleury, below Nilsson, etc)

Of players who played more than 28 playoff games:
18th in P/GP (similar to Bennett, below Monahan, Gaudreau, Reinhart, etc)
9th in G/GP (same as Monahan, below Bennett, Gilmour, Mullen, etc)

Even just looking at the 89 cup winning playoff run:
16th in points (with 4)
13th in goals (with 1)

His one statistical entry into the top 5 is largely thanks to one season which he never came close to again.

It’s no disrespect to Lanny, just making the point that what the bar performance-wise isn’t actually that high, and factors beyond the ice (leadership, community involvement, class, etc) all play a significant role. The Flames didn’t win the cup because of Lanny McDonald, nor did Lanny get in the HHOF because of his time with the Flames, so I don’t see those as significantly relevant to his deserving of a jersey retirement.

If it’s just performance, there’s about a dozen guys more deserving, from both his era and beyond. But we know it’s not just about that.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by konradical

I mean if Backlund finishes top all time in games played, top 5 in points that comes pretty close in a vacuum. Maybe some success comes within the next 3 years who knows. I think he is closer to jersey retired then people think. I can see both sides, and dont mind either decision.

I think he is a great player and great off ice person. I dont mind having this local legend with his number retire as long as it is limited to one person.

This season Gaudreau and Backlund will be 5th and 6th in all time points, though the order remains to be seen. The only guy above them without his jersey in the rafters with some kind of honour is a total train wreck who has a history of trashing the organization. So there’s certainly a case to be made for both based on that alone.

I definitely think he’ll end up #1 in GP and #5 in points by the time he retires. Possibly #4.

[YyjFlames]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Not necessarily. But if you isolate his contributions to just what he achieved with the Flames, there’s an argument to be made that the bar isn’t as high as we might think (or at least that being “elite” is less relevant than contributions to the team beyond the ice, or the “total package”)

Of players who played more than 400 games:
17th in P/GP (same as Reichel, below Tkachuk, Chouinard, Gaudreau, etc)
5th in G/GP (similar to Roberts, Loob, Fleury, below Nilsson, etc)

Of players who played more than 28 playoff games:
18th in P/GP (similar to Bennett, below Monahan, Gaudreau, Reinhart, etc)
9th in G/GP (same as Monahan, below Bennett, Gilmour, Mullen, etc)

Even just looking at the 89 cup winning playoff run:
16th in points (with 4)
13th in goals (with 1)

His one statistical entry into the top 5 is largely thanks to one season which he never came close to again.

It’s no disrespect to Lanny, just making the point that what the bar performance-wise isn’t actually that high, and factors beyond the ice (leadership, community involvement, class, etc) all play a significant role. The Flames didn’t win the cup because of Lanny McDonald, nor did Lanny get in the HHOF because of his time with the Flames, so I don’t see those as significantly relevant to his deserving of a jersey retirement.

If it’s just performance, there’s about a dozen guys more deserving, from both his era and beyond. But we know it’s not just about that.

Definitely. I agree with you on the total package piece -- and that Lanny's contributions off the ice were equally as important as his production and leadership on the ice in Calgary.

But you're undervaluing McDonald's contributions on the ice in comparison to Backlund's as the elder player very much was a star for at least four of his eight seasons with the team (Top 2-3 in scoring), and his contribution and leadership in the years leading to the cup win helped shape that '89 team.

That separates him from Backlund. While Backlund has always been an important part of the team, and his contributions have been incredibly valuable, he's never been a star like McDonald.

I get and agree with your point. I just don't see anywhere near comparable players for their on-ice accomplishments.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by YyjFlames

Definitely. I agree with you on the total package piece -- and that Lanny's contributions off the ice were equally as important as his production and leadership on the ice in Calgary.

But you're undervaluing McDonald's contributions on the ice in comparison to Backlund's as the elder player very much was a star for at least four of his eight seasons with the team (Top 2-3 in scoring), and his contribution and leadership in the years leading to the cup win helped shape that '89 team.

That separates him from Backlund. While Backlund has always been an important part of the team, and his contributions have been incredibly valuable, he's never been a star like McDonald.

I get and agree with your point. I just don't see anywhere near comparable players for their on-ice accomplishments.

Totally, and it wasn’t mean to compare the two or suggest Backlund was as good or more worthy than Lanny, just meant to highlight that some suggestions as to how the eligibility should be limited or evaluated would have also, probably, meant Lanny not qualifying either.

For Lanny it was more like, if performance or “elite” on ice qualities is the main metric, there are a bunch of other guys above him (not including Backlund here) who should be there. But they aren’t, and he is, so obviously all that other “stuff” is incredibly important.

[Funkhouser]

I agree that on paper, Lanny is not a slam dunk for jersey retirement. In fact, on paper the only Flame that undoubtedly deserves retirement is Iginla.

In my perfect world, the Flames would have just Iginla, MacDonald & Kipprusoff in the rafters.

I love many of the players below, but I would argue that they don't belong - yet belong more than Backlund:
-Vernon: 8 seasons, 2 Finals, 1 cup. Never won a major award, nor was he a league leader while here.
-Nieuwendyk: 9 seasons, 1 cup, 1 calder. Was a league leader but left over a contract dispute.
-MacInnis: 11 seasons, 1 cup, 1 conn smythe. Was a league leader but associates himself more with the Blues.
-Giordano: 14 seasons, 1 norris. Was a league leader, and captain.