Flyers Terminate Ryan Johansen's Contract

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Is there another sport that so frequently cancels contracts? Not quite an epidemic but nhl has had multiple in the last decade. And they tend to be public and messy with grievances.

It makes me think the nhl should have a better process where teams need to apply to the league to have them decision these.

Especially since most players seem to end up signing elsewhere regardless of the seriousness of the reason for termination. If you terminate a contract with cause the player should not be signing with the Oilers a week later every time.

The contracts in Baseball and the NBA are more secure. But I do think a longer term goal for NHL owners will be to get NFL style non-guaraentred contracts. The elite stars would still mostly get guaranteed deals, but other guys could only be getting like 2 years out of 4 guaranteed.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

The contracts in Baseball and the NBA are more secure. But I do think a longer term goal for NHL owners will be to get NFL style non-guaraentred contracts. The elite stars would still mostly get guaranteed deals, but other guys could only be getting like 2 years out of 4 guaranteed.

While I dont think you're wrong, and from an ownership perspective I can understand why they'd want that, I imagine from a PA perspective thats a 'Hill to Die On' and I'd understand why.

But further, the thing is...I think a big reason hockey and the NHL hasn't expanded like other sports is that the talent pool just isn't as deep.

There is a huge gulf between real, top-line big-name NHLers and the AHL equivalents.

For instance...as a Soccer fan, you can probably nab some 16-year olds out of Germany, France, Spain or England, slap 'em together and they'd tool MLS teams as a joke.

Hockey isnt the same. An AHL All-Star could be waiver-wire fodder, the Gap is HUGE.

Its tough to round out your rosters with jobbers from the 'A' these days and there just isnt enough talent or Cap to go around.

And while thats true, what there is enough to go around is 'Blame.'

GMs are paying too much, Agents are pushing too hard, PA is keeping anything in check and are essentially useless unless its a lockout and frankly...how can you lay blame on players for trying to maximize their compensation? They're the ones putting in the time, effort and their bodies on the line.

Its like 4-way tug-of-war. Possibly even more. Owners, Agents, PA, Players, Coaches, minor affiliates...you could go on and on.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

The contracts in Baseball and the NBA are more secure. But I do think a longer term goal for NHL owners will be to get NFL style non-guaraentred contracts. The elite stars would still mostly get guaranteed deals, but other guys could only be getting like 2 years out of 4 guaranteed.

Lots of luck for the owners to get that. To achieve that would mean UFA would need to come quite a bit sooner.

[Leeman4Gilmour]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

Flyers won't do that. They have the money to pay him, but they also think they have a case to not pay him. They're happy to fight it out and they don't want to trade a pick as they don't need to. They took him in the Walker desl to get the Avs to send that pick.

You're right. My thinking was based on the NHLPA/Johansen being successful with their grievance and the Flyers just wanting out.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by Locke

While I dont think you're wrong, and from an ownership perspective I can understand why they'd want that, I imagine from a PA perspective thats a 'Hill to Die On' and I'd understand why.

But further, the thing is...I think a big reason hockey and the NHL hasn't expanded like other sports is that the talent pool just isn't as deep.

There is a huge gulf between real, top-line big-name NHLers and the AHL equivalents.

For instance...as a Soccer fan, you can probably nab some 16-year olds out of Germany, France, Spain or England, slap 'em together and they'd tool MLS teams as a joke.

Hockey isnt the same. An AHL All-Star could be waiver-wire fodder, the Gap is HUGE.

Its tough to round out your rosters with jobbers from the 'A' these days and there just isnt enough talent or Cap to go around.

And while thats true, what there is enough to go around is 'Blame.'

GMs are paying too much, Agents are pushing too hard, PA is keeping anything in check and are essentially useless unless its a lockout and frankly...how can you lay blame on players for trying to maximize their compensation? They're the ones putting in the time, effort and their bodies on the line.

Its like 4-way tug-of-war. Possibly even more. Owners, Agents, PA, Players, Coaches, minor affiliates...you could go on and on.

I think the gap from star to 12th forward and top d to the number 6 is usually quite large. But from those guys to the AHL...not so much. Plus no one else pays close to NHL money unless you dare take a KHL gig.

So the lack of competition might give the NHL a chance to get players to cave in the next 04 type lockout.

The league is healthy enough right now that owners don't have a need to stop operating. But when that cycle comes due it could be a fight. Cap plus linkage was a hill to die on....how did that work out for Bob Goodenow? Even Donald Fehr gave back 11% of the revenue share to get his guys back to work. Will star players who'd get mostly guaranteed contracts give that up, or do they say, no let's cut our share another 10% and only take 45% of revenue. That's the question they'll have and will the rank and file convince them to take less for more guarantees?

[Paulie Walnuts]

I think its more realistic they go after term. They are not getting non-guaranteed contracts. The NHL has a better chance of folding.

They likely come after HRR and term. NBA owners get 52% and NFL owners get 51% but they also make teams spend 90% of the cap.

[timun]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Is there another sport that so frequently cancels contracts?

Haaaaave you seen football? NFL teams unceremoniously cut players all the time. It's a "bigger deal" when someone in the NHL has a contract terminated because NHL contracts are all guaranteed money, and the only way to terminate it is to buy it out or argue a breach. In the NFL, you got hurt? Congrats, you're cut, have a nice life. You're getting a little older? Eh, we're going to make you renegotiate your contract mid-season, and if you won't go along with it: cut.

[butterfly]

Wander Franco, but that was a pretty ugly story.

[Philly06Cup]

The onging theory is that Flyers took on RyJo's deal as a cap dump as part of the Sean Walker trade to Colorado. RyJo was excited to get a fresh start with the Flyers. Instead, the Flyers sent him to the AHL and wanted nothing to do with him as part of their roster. At that point, RyJo played the 'injury' card to avoid playing in the AHL. Flyers now claim material breach, you aren't injured, you just don't want to be assigned where we assign you.

[Zary's-Mustache]

Or maybe he was actually injured and would play with an injury in the nhl but not the ahl.

Happens all the time in playoffs. Players play injured.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by timun

Haaaaave you seen football? NFL teams unceremoniously cut players all the time. It's a "bigger deal" when someone in the NHL has a contract terminated because NHL contracts are all guaranteed money, and the only way to terminate it is to buy it out or argue a breach. In the NFL, you got hurt? Congrats, you're cut, have a nice life. You're getting a little older? Eh, we're going to make you renegotiate your contract mid-season, and if you won't go along with it: cut.

The nfl regularly terminates guaranteed contracts for breach like the nhl? Examples?

[butterfly]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

The nfl regularly terminates guaranteed contracts for breach like the nhl? Examples?

There aren't any. Owners are the strongest in NFL, players are the strongest in MLB. The other two are in between.

[Calgary]

So.. Johansen is out 8 million bucks, if Philly proves he violated terms? Has this happened often in NHL or pro sports?

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by butterfly

There aren't any. Owners are the strongest in NFL, players are the strongest in MLB. The other two are in between.

Yeah, I know. That’s why I made my post. This is unique to the nhl. No other league so regularly terminates contracts for breach, then deals with lengthy grievances from the PA and then lets the player immediately sign with a new team. It’s weird how often it happens in the nhl.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Yeah, I know. That’s why I made my post. This is unique to the nhl. No other league so regularly terminates contracts for breach, then deals with lengthy grievances from the PA and then lets the player immediately sign with a new team. It’s weird how often it happens in the nhl.

But isnt that a result of the iron-clad nature of NHL contracts?

I'm not a Contract Lawyer and I'm familiar with the contract structure in NFL, MLB or NBA, I'm more familiar with European Soccer.

But my understanding is that the NFL can cancel your contract if you so much as get the sniffles, with a certain of required pay, MLB is more concrete but I'm really familiar with that.

Soccer is a whole other animal entirely.

The thing with NHL contracts is that typically there has to be a fairly serious Material Breach, isn't that right?

Ethics breach, Legal issues, etc?

[Strange Brew]

I think a big contributing factor is that NHL GM’s so regularly handcuff themselves with absurdly long contracts. NBA puts a max term on contracts (mostly 5 years), and while MLB has no such max, only the most elite players get mega term deals.

Being in cap jail in the NHL is much worse than any other sport so that has to be a factor in teams looking to cancel deals.

[butterfly]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I think a big contributing factor is that NHL GM’s so regularly handcuff themselves with absurdly long contracts. NBA puts a max term on contracts (mostly 5 years), and while MLB has no such max, only the most elite players get mega term deals.

Being in cap jail in the NHL is much worse than any other sport so that has to be a factor in teams looking to cancel deals.

I think stupid GMs do that in the NHL when it comes to UFAs. See the Treliving special with Chris Tanev in Toronto. MLB GMs learned decade(s) ago not to do that, and those offers are reserved for Pre-Arb superstars in their early 20s.

Lowering the max term of contracts only serves as an aid to stupid GMs and hampers smart GMs. Especially when there are max amounts for contracts.

If the max term is 1 year then it leads to a league of ever-changing superteams which is quite boring. Being a GM would require almost no intelligence.

The longer the max term gets, the more you have to think about why you should ever offer it.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Locke

While I dont think you're wrong, and from an ownership perspective I can understand why they'd want that, I imagine from a PA perspective thats a 'Hill to Die On' and I'd understand why.

But further, the thing is...I think a big reason hockey and the NHL hasn't expanded like other sports is that the talent pool just isn't as deep.

There is a huge gulf between real, top-line big-name NHLers and the AHL equivalents.

For instance...as a Soccer fan, you can probably nab some 16-year olds out of Germany, France, Spain or England, slap 'em together and they'd tool MLS teams as a joke.

Hockey isnt the same. An AHL All-Star could be waiver-wire fodder, the Gap is HUGE.

Its tough to round out your rosters with jobbers from the 'A' these days and there just isnt enough talent or Cap to go around.

And while thats true, what there is enough to go around is 'Blame.'

GMs are paying too much, Agents are pushing too hard, PA is keeping anything in check and are essentially useless unless its a lockout and frankly...how can you lay blame on players for trying to maximize their compensation? They're the ones putting in the time, effort and their bodies on the line.

Its like 4-way tug-of-war. Possibly even more. Owners, Agents, PA, Players, Coaches, minor affiliates...you could go on and on.

Thinking about what your saying, then the moneyball approach is of crucial importance as well

If talent is scarce and fungible to a lesser degree, must there not have to be more opportunity for good GMs to outsmart a set of poor GMs ?

[dustygoon]

Originally Posted by Philly06Cup

The onging theory is that Flyers took on RyJo's deal as a cap dump as part of the Sean Walker trade to Colorado. RyJo was excited to get a fresh start with the Flyers. Instead, the Flyers sent him to the AHL and wanted nothing to do with him as part of their roster. At that point, RyJo played the 'injury' card to avoid playing in the AHL. Flyers now claim material breach, you aren't injured, you just don't want to be assigned where we assign you.

That is a different light on this. I assumed he was pissed at being pushed out of a contending team and was one of the guys Graves was pointing at saying they were part of the problem. He already had a chip when he arrived in Philly.

[D as in David]

Philadelphia should have started a rumour that Johansen was having an affair with Jett Luchanko's mom.