Salvaging the honour of a family

[4X4]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Yes.

But I think what some people are objecting to is the term "common practice".

There are 140 million people in Pakistan and 260 of these murders (according to the article) have taken place this year. That is 260 too many obviously, but it doesn't sound like common practice to me.

There might be 15 thousand murders in the United States this year. Would anyone disagree with the statement "murder is a common practice in the United States"? Or what about Toronto this year? What is the number, 75? 75 murders in a city of 3 million is a much more common practice than 260 murders in a country of 140 million. So I guess murder is a common practice in Toronto?

EDIT: and I see you responded to this as I typed it up so let's move along.

But the difference is that murder happens all over the world, all the time. Men killing their daughters because they are accused if adultery doesn't happen al over the world, all the time.

Common practise may be being misused here, but like I said, it's all relative.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Ah, I see... After you call me out for not addressing your question, and I point out that I did, you suddenly have nothing to say. :baby:

Maybe you're not reading the thread. I've got plenty to say. On topic. That's where we part ways, yours have nothing to do with the topic at hand. You're looking to snipe people with.. education? Nice. I don't find anything you've had to say since then worthwhile to respond to, and I was trying to respect Frank the Tank's idea that we should stop squabbling, and stick to the topic at hand. Apparently you don't agree. Not surprising. It must be your lack of education

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Common practise may be being misused here

That's what I've been saying. Thanks!

[4X4]

Oh, Ag... You fight like a girl.

nitpick

defend

offend

defend

nitpick

[Agamemnon]

Under Pakistan's penal code, honour killings are treated as murder. However, the law states that the family of the victim is allowed to compromise with the killer (who is usually a relative). "We are calling for this law to be changed," Hina Jilani, a human rights lawyer, told IRIN from Lahore.

How lame is that? It counts as 'murder', but it's between the girls family and the 'murderer' (who is a part of the girls family) to work out the 'punishment'. I'm sure most cases don't involve the family condemning the guy.

I'm surprised Western Nations haven't made more of a beef w/ countries like Pakistan over this kind of activity. It's one thing to have it going on behind the scenes, but another when the state actively facilitates, through law, this sort of conduct. Disgusting.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

I'm surprised Western Nations haven't made more of a beef w/ countries like Pakistan over this kind of activity. It's one thing to have it going on behind the scenes, but another when the state actively facilitates, through law, this sort of conduct. Disgusting.

There may have been time or attention available for matters sucah as these, but the world is caught up with Iraq and terrorism.

Funny thing, IMO, I agreed (and still do) with the Iraq war mainly because of the atrocities committed by Hussein and co.
Unfortunately, all the mass graves uncovered will never quiet teh people who point out that no WMDs were ever found. But hey, they've got a point. That ws the reason for the invasion.


The other unfortunality (no education) is that the US won't be doing anyone any favours anytime soon. The women of Pakistan are going to have to wait until this Iraq is a distant memory... Or maybe until Pakistan stops supporting the US...

[@theCBE]

Originally Posted by 4X4

The other unfortunality (no education) is that the US won't be doing anyone any favours anytime soon. The women of Pakistan are going to have to wait until this Iraq is a distant memory... Or maybe until Pakistan stops supporting the US...

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...rnational/Asia

Above is a link to a globe and mail article on the same killings

Statistics on honour killings are confused and imprecise, but figures from the Human Rights Commission's website and its officials show a marked reduction in cases this year: 267 in the first 11 months of 2005, compared with 579 during all of 2004. The Ministry of Women's Development said it had no reliable figures.
Police in Multan said they would complete their investigation into Mr. Ahmed's case in the next two weeks and that he faces the death sentence if he is convicted of the killings and of terrorizing his neighbourhood.

The killings have been cut in half in the past year, although ~270 honour killings is 270 too many that is still significant drop. Pakistan is helping themselves without US intervention.

This backs up a point I was attempting to make in an earlier post. If you compared these #'s to what they were 20-30 years ago you would probably see a marked improvement.

We notice all of these barbaric acts now because we have access to instanteous news coverage all over the world, especially focused in the middle east and asian countries. We are appalled by the negative aspects of their culture, but we fail to see that they have been improving. Not enough to our standards, but still improving.

On a side note, good to see he will be sentenced to death if convicted.

[BrownOne]

It is what it is. No one can force to westernize religons, you can't change it, even if it involves things like this. George Bush can try all he wants, but everyone cannot be christian.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

Bernardo is a sick individual. The woman who killed her four children in Texas because God told her to do so is a sick individual. And other examples. It is not a practice accepted by our society. Its typically committed by individuals with some pyschological problems.

The practice of honour killings in a Muslim culture does not require one to be mentally ill or unstable. It happens with great frequency and a certain and large segment of society finds it an acceptable practice, so much so that perpetrators are not punished and governments continue to allow mechanisms that do not discourage it.

That is the difference and that is what you are attempting to defend.

Having established that, should we allow honour killings in our society? Are we the ones who are wrong to look on this practice in horror? Would we be a better society or a worse off society if we allowed the practice?

Cowperson

Actually, I wasn't even referring to honour killings in the Muslim countries, I was referring to the example that Vulcan brought up of the east indian man (not necessarily muslim, probably sikh) killing his daughter in Canada, and his reference to "them" bringing their backwards culture with them. This guy was obviously a sick individual as well, as most east indians who immigrate to Canada (or live in India) do not end up murduring their kids...and that is a fact. Also, I did state that women's rights are still an issue in the muslim world, and I fully acknowledge that, it was the first thing I said in my post. I did not defend these practices of honour killings, nor would I. You misunderstood me, or are just being argumentative. And by asking me stupid questions like "should we allow honour killings in our society" you are just being arrogant and condescending. WTF, do you expect me to say "yes"? Get bent.

I would argue that the muslim guy that kills his own kids is a sick individual too, you would have to be. Most rational parents, of any relgion, dont want to slit their own kids throats.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Igottago

Actually, I wasn't even referring to honour killings in the Muslim countries, I was referring to the example that Vulcan brought up of the east indian man (not necessarily muslim, probably sikh) killing his daughter in Canada, and his reference to "them" bringing their backwards culture with them. This guy was obviously a sick individual as well, as most east indians who immigrate to Canada (or live in India) do not end up murduring their kids...and that is a fact. Also, I did state that women's rights are still an issue in the muslim world, and I fully acknowledge that, it was the first thing I said in my post. I did not defend these practices of honour killings, nor would I. You misunderstood me, or are just being argumentative. And by asking me stupid questions like "should we allow honour killings in our society" you are just being arrogant and condescending. WTF, do you expect me to say "yes"? Get bent.

I would argue that the muslim guy that kills his own kids is a sick individual too, you would have to be. Most rational parents, of any relgion, dont want to slit their own kids throats.

I didn't say "their" backwards cultural bias and I don't like to label other cultures as backwards as all cultures can contribute to our world mosaic but obviously some practises need to be sifted out and this is one example.
I'm under no delusions that western culture is not responsible for atrocities and we have enough of our own screwups without importing more. Obviously 99% of us or our families were or are immigrants and we are managing to form are own culture, hopefully taking the best from each culture including the natives.

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by Igottago

Actually, I wasn't even referring to honour killings in the Muslim countries, I was referring to the example that Vulcan brought up of the east indian man (not necessarily muslim, probably sikh) killing his daughter in Canada, and his reference to "them" bringing their backwards culture with them. This guy was obviously a sick individual as well, as most east indians who immigrate to Canada (or live in India) do not end up murduring their kids...and that is a fact. Also, I did state that women's rights are still an issue in the muslim world, and I fully acknowledge that, it was the first thing I said in my post. I did not defend these practices of honour killings, nor would I. You misunderstood me, or are just being argumentative. And by asking me stupid questions like "should we allow honour killings in our society" you are just being arrogant and condescending. WTF, do you expect me to say "yes"? Get bent.

I would argue that the muslim guy that kills his own kids is a sick individual too, you would have to be. Most rational parents, of any relgion, dont want to slit their own kids throats.

1) You misunderstood the questions I posed. . . . . they weren't directed at you personally. They were directed at the board in general and designed to further the discussion from the other side. If you took them to be condenscending then that's your problem.

Secondly, history is rife with examples of cultures who considered ritualistic killings as part of the fabric of their societies. While we would consider them crimes and the acts of twisted personalities today, they in fact were condoned by the majority and committed by normal folk.

Similarly, there are cultures today where certain elements probably numbering in the tens of millions who would still consider ritualistic or honour killings, including the murder of youngsters, to be legitimate, hence the lack of serious government intervention in those societies.

Are tens of millions psychologically disturbed? That's unlikely.

As you noted, in Canada or the USA, we would generally find such a killing to be perpetrated by someone with some pyschological deficiency . . . . and that's because that would be the normal scenario in our society, the requirement to carry out such a heinous act.

You consider them twisted fata's - and how could you not? - but the reality is we are probably examining the culture in this case, the world where this particular individual grew where this wasn't out of the norm or even shameful.

Cowperson

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

1) You misunderstood the questions I posed. . . . . they weren't directed at you personally. They were directed at the board in general and designed to further the discussion from the other side. If you took them to be condenscending then that's your problem.

Secondly, history is rife with examples of cultures who considered ritualistic killings as part of the fabric of their societies. While we would consider them crimes and the acts of twisted personalities today, they in fact were condoned by the majority and committed by normal folk.

Similarly, there are cultures today where certain elements probably numbering in the tens of millions who would still consider ritualistic or honour killings, including the murder of youngsters, to be legitimate, hence the lack of serious government intervention in those societies.

Are tens of millions psychologically disturbed? That's unlikely.

As you noted, in Canada or the USA, we would generally find such a killing to be perpetrated by someone with some pyschological deficiency . . . . and that's because that would be the normal scenario in our society, the requirement to carry out such a heinous act.

You consider them twisted fata's - and how could you not? - but the reality is we are probably examining the culture in this case, the world where this particular individual grew where this wasn't out of the norm or even shameful.

Cowperson

Okay, well let's say we agree that there are certain trends within these cultures (particularly in the muslim world) that point to a more widespread acceptence of the marginalization of women, which leads to things like honour killings...I agree.

But I was more reacting to Vulcan's example, because it set off the idea of an inherent us vs. them mentality towards immigrants, and people of different ethnicities (not meaning to pick on vulcan, its just the idea behind it)..maybe this inherent attitude exists on the broader scale as well. Maybe we magnify every terrible event in other cultures to give ourselves a feeling of superiority over them. I'm sure it happens both ways too.

Let me ask everyone this way, getting philosophical i guess...if a brown guy, living in Canada, whatever religion, kills his daughter because she dated a white guy (as per Vulcan's example), is there a possibility he is a disturbed individual, or is the root cause automatically his cultural background? Which is the first thing to come to your mind? There is plenty of evidence supporting hundreds of thousands of immigrants of similar background that contribute well to our society, and few small cases of the extreme behaviour..yet somehow for many people the automatic tendency is to think that particular culture is bringing in something dangerous, something that needs to be feared or corrected. Maybe it was just one psychotic father.

I guess my point is, too many people let the extreme cases be their measuring stick and the evidence that legitimizes their own ignorance/fear of other cultures.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Igottago

Okay, well let's say we agree that there are certain trends within these cultures (particularly in the muslim world) that point to a more widespread acceptence of the marginalization of women, which leads to things like honour killings...I agree.

But I was more reacting to Vulcan's example, because it set off the idea of an inherent us vs. them mentality towards immigrants, and people of different ethnicities (not meaning to pick on vulcan, its just the idea behind it)..maybe this inherent attitude exists on the broader scale as well. Maybe we magnify every terrible event in other cultures to give ourselves a feeling of superiority over them. I'm sure it happens both ways too.

Let me ask everyone this way, getting philosophical i guess...if a brown guy, living in Canada, whatever religion, kills his daughter because she dated a white guy (as per Vulcan's example), is there a possibility he is a disturbed individual, or is the root cause automatically his cultural background? Which is the first thing to come to your mind? There is plenty of evidence supporting hundreds of thousands of immigrants of similar background that contribute well to our society, and few small cases of the extreme behaviour..yet somehow for many people the automatic tendency is to think that particular culture is bringing in something dangerous, something that needs to be feared or corrected. Maybe it was just one psychotic father.

I guess my point is, too many people let the extreme cases be their measuring stick and the evidence that legitimizes their own ignorance/fear of other cultures.

If you think I automaticly came to the conclusion that all E. Indians or Arabs think it's okay to slay their daughters, you don't know me and I don't like your stereotyping. I do think that they have a problem in their community though. As an aside I do believe the man was Sikh as he was wearing a turban but I didn't want to jump to conclusions. Further ruining your stereotyping the boyfriend in question did not appear to be white but to my eye looked native.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

Cow, I generally respect what you have to say, but in this case I think you're overstating things by saying this is "common practice". It happens, it's horrible, but I wouldn't say it's common practice.

Is pedophilia in the Catholic Church "common practice"?

well based on this article...

Sex abuse settlement

Id have to say that if not "common practise" they've got it down pat.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by BrownOne

It is what it is. No one can force to westernize religons, you can't change it, even if it involves things like this. George Bush can try all he wants, but everyone cannot be christian.

Well then heres another thought....why dont we just abandon religions altogether? Maybe we could save millions of people from needless suffering!

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Well then heres another thought....why dont we just abandon religions altogether? Maybe we could save millions of people from needless suffering!

Because the religious are the only people who do dumb ****. I've never heard of an athiest or agnostic doing something dumb and causing others to suffer. You suppose gang members are all Christian?

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by fotze

But no one cares about gang killings unless they happen to kill a white girl (blonde really helps too).

You got it. The media really goes crazy when a blonde girl is killed or goes missing.

These family honour killings have a lot more to do with culture that religion. I'm generally no defender of religion but I don't think the Koran or the Sikh book tell fathers to kill their daughters.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by FireFly

Because the religious are the only people who do dumb ****. I've never heard of an athiest or agnostic doing something dumb and causing others to suffer. You suppose gang members are all Christian?

LOL...now now Fly...that wasnt even a useful swat, pretty banal comparison actually! hey did ya know that Rushdie is an Atheist? Glad to see you like what he says!

[4X4]

Originally Posted by Cheese

LOL...now now Fly...that wasnt even a useful swat, pretty banal comparison actually! hey did ya know that Rushdie is an Atheist? Glad to see you like what he says!

Believe it or not, some religious people have the capacity to appretiate wisdom from people who are of other religons or people that are not religious at all.

FFS, did I spell religious properly? I swear. My spelling is getting worse by the day.

Edit: please leave "appreciate" out of the spelling bee

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Cheese

LOL...now now Fly...that wasnt even a useful swat, pretty banal comparison actually! hey did ya know that Rushdie is an Atheist? Glad to see you like what he says!

Banal comparison? Sure it's commonplace, and certainly predicable, but also accurate.

270 honour killings in Pakistan last year was it? How many gang killings do you suppose there were? Frankly, your war on religion is pretty banal.