Practice Notes - April 7

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I think it's the following.

1. Goaltending
2. Sutter
3. Huberdeau
4. Overtime
5. Powerplay
6. Mangiapane

Kadri has had a career normal season. 20 goals and 50-60 points is about what the team should expect from him for the first 4 years of the contract so I barely think he's even an issue outside of the feud with the coach. IMO Mangiapane's lack of production is right behind Huberdeau for guys that didn't produce as expected which hurt the team. I just think this is the worst season I have seen from Darryl Sutter as head coach. He misread the locker room and has made numerous questionable personnel decisions. He set the bar high for himself and this is not remotely close to what he did last season or in his first tenure with the team as head coach.

I agree overall, but to the bolded...he's been abysmal defensively for almost the entire season. He was touted as a strong 2-way center who could even shut down an opposing star if called upon, but he's been truly terrible defensively. Team worst plus/minus, far worse than soon to be retired Lucic. That should say something.

Huberdeau has been much better in recent weeks, but I do acknowledge he's struggled for most of the season. I think he's at least played defense well, which is something he was never known for.

Yeah, Mangiapane has been a big disappointment, not only for his lack of actual production, but also because his lack of defensive play and hustle, which he was always known for. He kinda mailed it in most of the year.

Sutter tried pushing buttons all year, but I think he literally pushed almost every wrong button you could imagine. His instincts were off with this group. It's odd to me because he usually understands how to manage the players pretty well, even if his tactics don't always work. This year I felt his ego got in the way of trying to be authentic with his players. Chalk it up to a weird season and move on.

I think you bring this group back with a couple of younger guys brought up from the minors and you probably are easily a playoff team next year. I might be in the minority, but everything that could go wrong this year did, so it stands to reason that won't happen again.

[taxbuster]

Lousy goaltending - directly cost games
Awful, pitiful really, PP - directly cost games
OT player deployment - directly cost games
Kadri's lack of GAF - directly cost at least one critical game

Sutter, Hubes, trades, blah blah blah are all indirect and *contributed* to a so-far poor season...but the above ones to me are absolutely directly responsible.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I think it's the following.

1. Goaltending
2. Sutter
3. Huberdeau
4. Overtime
5. Powerplay
6. Mangiapane

Kadri has had a career normal season. 20 goals and 50-60 points is about what the team should expect from him for the first 4 years of the contract so I barely think he's even an issue outside of the feud with the coach. IMO Mangiapane's lack of production is right behind Huberdeau for guys that didn't produce as expected which hurt the team. I just think this is the worst season I have seen from Darryl Sutter as head coach. He misread the locker room and has made numerous questionable personnel decisions. He set the bar high for himself and this is not remotely close to what he did last season or in his first tenure with the team as head coach.

Absolving Kadri from the list is blasphemy.

He is 2 or 3 with coaching and Huberdeau 4.

It's not even about the points expecting 80 plus from him was silly his points are fine. It's everything else he was supposed to bring that's lacking. A lazy player who glides in on his back checks a selfish player on offence who doesn't know how to use teammates and someone who wad supposed to embrace the big stage and big games. He's been a ghost in all those areas a complete lack of passion and compete.

[Enoch Root]

1) goaltending
2) power play
3) Sutter's player utilization and atmospheric chaos
4) OT (largely on Sutter)
5) Kadri, Huberdeau and Mangiapane (at various times)
6) Flames' curse

[jlh2640]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I think it's the following.

1. Goaltending
2. Sutter
3. Huberdeau
4. Overtime
5. Powerplay
6. Mangiapane

Kadri has had a career normal season. 20 goals and 50-60 points is about what the team should expect from him for the first 4 years of the contract so I barely think he's even an issue outside of the feud with the coach. IMO Mangiapane's lack of production is right behind Huberdeau for guys that didn't produce as expected which hurt the team. I just think this is the worst season I have seen from Darryl Sutter as head coach. He misread the locker room and has made numerous questionable personnel decisions. He set the bar high for himself and this is not remotely close to what he did last season or in his first tenure with the team as head coach.

There is just no way you can justify not having Kadri in your Top 6 issues. Aside from the points, which have plummeted the last few months. His overall game, 2 ways is not anywhere close to what he’s capable of. To me it’s this

1. Goaltending
2. Players grossly under achieving. Huberdeau. Kadri. Mangiapane. By far the worst culprits of this. Aside from the goalies. Lindholm. Weegar. Hanifin also haven’t been good enough either. But those first 3 have been no where what their average even should be. Kadri has been the worst of the 3 lately. But overall Mangiapane is the biggest disappointment all year aside from Markstrom.
3. Overtime
4. Fragility of the team when they enter the 3rd with a lead.
5. Powerplay
6. Sutter


I am all for Sutter be called out for some of this. A lot of it maybe even. But I also know how bad that team looked in the all canadian division. Only to come back look incredible. So I also don’t hate the idea of bringing Brad and Darryl back with some changes to the roster. We’ll see I guess. My guess is when we miss the playoffs that Brad is gone. Darryl will move into a consultant role and retire. And we’ll be starting over in many areas.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

If you dig into Weegar's underlying numbers, he's literally one of the top defensemen in the game. He's not the issue.

[NegativeSpace]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I think it's the following.

1. Goaltending
2. Sutter
3. Huberdeau
4. Overtime
5. Powerplay
6. Mangiapane

Kadri has had a career normal season. 20 goals and 50-60 points is about what the team should expect from him for the first 4 years of the contract so I barely think he's even an issue outside of the feud with the coach. IMO Mangiapane's lack of production is right behind Huberdeau for guys that didn't produce as expected which hurt the team. I just think this is the worst season I have seen from Darryl Sutter as head coach. He misread the locker room and has made numerous questionable personnel decisions. He set the bar high for himself and this is not remotely close to what he did last season or in his first tenure with the team as head coach.

For me it isn't the points with Kadri; it is the 200 ft game. I thought he'd be much better defensively. The second line has been a black hole defensively to the point that Backlund has been promoted again. In previous years, we had a second line that was rock solid defensively but put up less points than we would like.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I think it's the following.

1. Goaltending
2. Sutter
3. Huberdeau
4. Overtime
5. Powerplay
6. Mangiapane

Kadri has had a career normal season. 20 goals and 50-60 points is about what the team should expect from him for the first 4 years of the contract so I barely think he's even an issue outside of the feud with the coach. IMO Mangiapane's lack of production is right behind Huberdeau for guys that didn't produce as expected which hurt the team. I just think this is the worst season I have seen from Darryl Sutter as head coach. He misread the locker room and has made numerous questionable personnel decisions. He set the bar high for himself and this is not remotely close to what he did last season or in his first tenure with the team as head coach.

Mangiapane’s production is an issue. He is allocated too much cap to be a 15 goal scorer. But at lest good things happen for the Flames when he is on the ice. Can’t say this for Kadri who has really hurt this team.

And to say Sutter has misread the locker room is a big reach without actually having spent even a second in said room.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Top?

I think it's goaltending 1, Kadri and Huberdeau 2 and 3, powerplay 4, overtime record 5 and Sutter and his stubbornness about 6.

Defensive gaffs have to be up there too above Sutter. Too many times leaving goaltending out to dry.

Also missing the net and hitting too many posts and cross bars.

[howard_the_duck]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Top?

I think it's goaltending 1, Kadri and Huberdeau 2 and 3, powerplay 4, overtime record 5 and Sutter and his stubbornness about 6.

6 directly contributes to 2, though. Sutter’s issues are definitely a major headline this season. No getting around it.

[memphusk]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Absolving Kadri from the list is blasphemy.

He is 2 or 3 with coaching and Huberdeau 4.

It's not even about the points expecting 80 plus from him was silly his points are fine. It's everything else he was supposed to bring that's lacking. A lazy player who glides in on his back checks a selfish player on offence who doesn't know how to use teammates and someone who wad supposed to embrace the big stage and big games. He's been a ghost in all those areas a complete lack of passion and compete.

A 32 year old player who just cashed in after a cup win gets a max term deal. You knew this was coming but wow that was quick. First season.

[memphusk]

Originally Posted by howard_the_duck

6 directly contributes to 2, though. Sutter’s issues are definitely a major headline this season. No getting around it.

In what sense though? Sutter wants guys to buy in or those guys want to do what they want? Warrener is right about Kadri being Selfish. Huberdeau just isn't what was advertised.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Yeah, Mangiapane has been a big disappointment, not only for his lack of actual production, but also because his lack of defensive play and hustle, which he was always known for. He kinda mailed it in most of the year.

His play driving numbers haven't dropped at all. Just doesn't have the shooting percentage of recent seasons.

I don't think he's been anywhere near as bad as the average fan is suggesting.

Production cut in half, and that hurts the team. So as an absolute, easily an issue.

But not sure I agree on him dogging it or mailing it in at all.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by howard_the_duck

6 directly contributes to 2, though. Sutter’s issues are definitely a major headline this season. No getting around it.

Kadri is dogging it because he's not being coached properly?

Not sure I'm agreeing with that notion.

[Fan in Exile]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

I agree overall, but to the bolded...he's been abysmal defensively for almost the entire season. He was touted as a strong 2-way center who could even shut down an opposing star if called upon, but he's been truly terrible defensively. Team worst plus/minus, far worse than soon to be retired Lucic. That should say something.

Huberdeau has been much better in recent weeks, but I do acknowledge he's struggled for most of the season. I think he's at least played defense well, which is something he was never known for.

Yeah, Mangiapane has been a big disappointment, not only for his lack of actual production, but also because his lack of defensive play and hustle, which he was always known for. He kinda mailed it in most of the year.

Sutter tried pushing buttons all year, but I think he literally pushed almost every wrong button you could imagine. His instincts were off with this group. It's odd to me because he usually understands how to manage the players pretty well, even if his tactics don't always work. This year I felt his ego got in the way of trying to be authentic with his players. Chalk it up to a weird season and move on.

I think you bring this group back with a couple of younger guys brought up from the minors and you probably are easily a playoff team next year. I might be in the minority, but everything that could go wrong this year did, so it stands to reason that won't happen again.

Agree you bring back the team replacing Lucic, Lewis and Ritchie AND with a new coach.

[TheChief]

On the surface one could look at Mangiapane's stats and say he contributed to the team taking a step back this year. I dont look too much into the advanced stats but on the eye test there was maybe a few bad shifts or bad changes this year but I think it was more to do with some of the other slumping guys he had been playing with early on until getting moved back to Backlund's line. There's no doubt he has been more "snakebitten" this year, but I still see the effort game in and game out.



I cant see a way in which the organization doesn't run it back next year. For everyone blaming Sutter constantly in every thread I come into I ask you this... is he strapping on the pads and scoring goals? He had to deal with massive personal changes this summer, two 40 goal men out of the lineup...the new guys haven't been great and we haven't got lots of saves.


and through all the issues we have had this year, can anyone really say that the team has ever quit? I mean that loss against the kings (8-2) was probably the only one this year we were not in all game.



To me the whole media circus surrounding Sutter is a media induced story (lets be honest they have it out for him). I think in the room the players know what he expects and respect him for it. (well maybe not Kadri)

[NegativeSpace]

Originally Posted by TheChief

On the surface one could look at Mangiapane's stats and say he contributed to the team taking a step back this year. I dont look too much into the advanced stats but on the eye test there was maybe a few bad shifts or bad changes this year but I think it was more to do with some of the other slumping guys he had been playing with early on until getting moved back to Backlund's line. There's no doubt he has been more "snakebitten" this year, but I still see the effort game in and game out.



I cant see a way in which the organization doesn't run it back next year. For everyone blaming Sutter constantly in every thread I come into I ask you this... is he strapping on the pads and scoring goals? He had to deal with massive personal changes this summer, two 40 goal men out of the lineup...the new guys haven't been great and we haven't got lots of saves.


and through all the issues we have had this year, can anyone really say that the team has ever quit? I mean that loss against the kings (8-2) was probably the only one this year we were not in all game.



To me the whole media circus surrounding Sutter is a media induced story (lets be honest they have it out for him). I think in the room the players know what he expects and respect him for it. (well maybe not Kadri)

I agree. He's made some questionable line-up decisions this year, but that is far down the list of reasons for them being out of a playoff spot today. The issue I have with getting rid of Sutter is more based on the fact that Sutter is the first good coach we have had since ... well Sutter. Those wanting him gone are likely going to spend the next 10 years wishing for an experienced and talented coach.

[howard_the_duck]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Kadri is dogging it because he's not being coached properly?

Not sure I'm agreeing with that notion.

I’m talking motivation. Not all players respond to Darryl’s schtick, he’s the kind of guy that players either thrive or wilt under.

For whatever reason he’s not pushing the right buttons with these guys. They’re far from blameless - I can’t wrap my head around what we are seeing from Kadri - but I do believe there’s causality to their lack of production due to a poor relationship with the coach.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by howard_the_duck

I’m talking motivation. Not all players respond to Darryl’s schtick, he’s the kind of guy that players either thrive or wilt under.

For whatever reason he’s not pushing the right buttons with these guys. They’re far from blameless - I can’t wrap my head around what we are seeing from Kadri - but I do believe there’s causality to their lack of production due to a poor relationship with the coach.

Could’ve said the same thing about Neal and he went on to be terrible in every other stop.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by howard_the_duck

I’m talking motivation. Not all players respond to Darryl’s schtick, he’s the kind of guy that players either thrive or wilt under.

For whatever reason he’s not pushing the right buttons with these guys. They’re far from blameless - I can’t wrap my head around what we are seeing from Kadri - but I do believe there’s causality to their lack of production due to a poor relationship with the coach.

Sutter wears on me, I get why people want him gone.

But any player that mails it in ... especially in year one with a new fan base cheering him on is a special kind of a suck hole and gets the blame 100% from me.

Now I'm not saying Kadri is mailing it in ... he had a pretty odd game last week that suggests that to some degree, but I'm sure there's frustration etc.

But I don't like the pass to players playing like crap by blaming it on a coach, especially when all 32 coaches are essentially preaching the same thing with slight variations.

You're not going to bring in a next coach that cares less about team defense for certain players.