Australian Racial Violence?!?

[Footscray]

For you to be telling people that all muslims hate outsiders and repress women and then fire back at me for calling you on a stereotype with no evidence is laughable.
The day we as adults need to justify to other adults from the ground level up why racism and stereotyping are wrong is a pretty sad one.
edited to remove needless sarcasm

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

How about you (and Ag) provide some actual arguments, instead of this empty prose. Prove to me that islamic fundamentals are compatible with western society, prove to me that the values are compatible.

Islamic fundamentalists or islamic people? Fundamentalists of any religion have trouble being compatible with anyone else. That's why they're fundamentalists. No shinguard their values aren't compatible.

What you said, is that you should be able to judge all islamic people based on the actions/beliefs of some fundamentalists. Perhaps you should prove that all islamic people are fundamentalists.

[Cube Inmate]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

Another thing, I have said that I think that for example Japanese culture is perfectly compatible with western culture.

I respectfully disagree. Any culture that brings us this abomination is not compatible in my books:

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Cube Inmate

I respectfully disagree. Any culture that brings us this abomination is not compatible in my books:

Yeah but that's Centipede in the background so it evens out.

[Patek23]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

Huge genaralizations? Mate, get a grip. If you are not able to see clear patterns in islamic "culture", you are blind. The whole "culture" revolves around a total disrespect towards women and non-muslims. I will ask you again - what do you know about islamic law and how it treats women and "infidels"? You will see a lot of tolerance there, I am sure.

Second, I wasnt talking about all Eastern cultures, that should be obvious. For example, Japanese culture is perfectly compatible with western culture and they can enrich each other, as it has happened in business for example (US companies applying Japanese methods). I am yet to see a single positive thing coming out of islamic "culture."

As for the good muslims - they are the ones who are intelligent enough to drop the crap their culture is infested with. I would go as far as to say that they had to drop their culture (almost) altogether and adopted western culture (while keeping some of the "innocent islamic stuff"). Traditional islam is not compatible with western (judeo-christian-humanist) culture. You havent proved otherwise, other than the usual political correctness BS (all ideologies are even etc). Call me ignorant all you want, I will call you a blind apologist. So we are even.

Moron.



You seem to think the western culture is so much better, where people are willing to form into a mob and attack colored people. Where there is a group allowed to torture and kill black people during the 1880's. Have you ever been to the South of the United States? My cousin has lived down there since she was 19 and I'll fill you in on a little info you might not know in certain towns( these are not town rules, but the general mentality) girls are not supposed to wear jeans, some people will shun them for a while if they talk to someone of color and many wives are not allowed to get jobs within their family unless the husband grants it I'll show you a little coincidence: Hardcore Christian=Hardcore Muslim, your average muslim does not take every thing their religious book says as 100 percent fact much like your average christian doesn't. Get over your prejudices and stereotypes and maybe you'll see some truth.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

Second, I wasnt talking about all Eastern cultures, that should be obvious. For example, Japanese culture is perfectly compatible with western culture and they can enrich each other, as it has happened in business for example (US companies applying Japanese methods). I am yet to see a single positive thing coming out of islamic "culture."

Do you realize that in Japan, there is caste based discrimination and rampant sexism? The age of consent is also only 13. I love Japan, but like all cultures with no exception to our own, it has areas that need to be worked on.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Do you realize that in Japan, there is caste based discrimination and rampant sexism? I love Japan, but like all cultures with no exception to our own, it has areas that need to be worked on.

50 years from now we will all look back and wonder why we discriminated against homosexuals (Not all, but some of us).

[Daradon]

All cultures and especially all MONOTHESTIC religions have their share of fundamentalists. FoL, you seem to be suggesting that the Islamic culture produces far MORE fundamentalists than others. To which I will say like all the others. Prove it. The proof of burden is on you if you are painting with that wide a brush.

Maybe things seem that way now, and maybe yes we are seeing a bit of a backlash over the last fifty years, but surely even a passing glance at history can show you that more people have died because of wars or bigotry started under the banner of the cross than any other religion.

[@theCBE]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

Huge genaralizations? Mate, get a grip. If you are not able to see clear patterns in islamic "culture", you are blind. The whole "culture" revolves around a total disrespect towards women and non-muslims. I will ask you again - what do you know about islamic law and how it treats women and "infidels"? You will see a lot of tolerance there, I am sure.

Second, I wasnt talking about all Eastern cultures, that should be obvious. For example, Japanese culture is perfectly compatible with western culture and they can enrich each other, as it has happened in business for example (US companies applying Japanese methods). I am yet to see a single positive thing coming out of islamic "culture."

As for the good muslims - they are the ones who are intelligent enough to drop the crap their culture is infested with. I would go as far as to say that they had to drop their culture (almost) altogether and adopted western culture (while keeping some of the "innocent islamic stuff"). Traditional islam is not compatible with western (judeo-christian-humanist) culture. You havent proved otherwise, other than the usual political correctness BS (all ideologies are even etc). Call me ignorant all you want, I will call you a blind apologist. So we are even.

You are ignorant. You have taken some of the worst values of a small sect of a VERY large culture, and labelled every one in that culture with having those same flawed ideals.

Do you honeslty believe that the only muslims out there are infact islamic fundamentalists? If you do turn off the damn CNN and read a book about what Islam really stands for; things like faith, plurality, meritocracy and humanity.

There are hundreds of millions of muslims in the world and almost as many ways in which they choose to interpret and practice their faith. Don't be stupid and assume that the worst of them are the dominant ones. That would be like me assuming that a group of white supremesits down in Texas represent white America.

Get over you prejudice and open your mind, all faiths and cultures have something good to offer, its up to you if you want to see it

Below are the links to the missions statements for the Muslim Students Associations at the U of A and U of C.

Read them. I think you can see that both of them have found a way to maintain their beliefs and integrate into western culture just fine

U of C MSA

U of A MSA

[transplant99]

Have you ever been to the South of the United States? My cousin has lived down there since she was 19 and I'll fill you in on a little info you might not know in certain towns white girls are not allowed to wear jeans, talk to anyone of color or attain a job unless given "permission

Holy smokes what a load of BS this is.

I DO live in the South...and there is absolutely NO evidence of this nonsense anywhere.


Laughable.

In response though...I would say that in the entire country of Afghanistan, before it was liberated from the Taliban, women couldn't show their faces in public, they couldn't vote, they couldn't work and were treated like chattel by the hardcore element of the Muslim fanatics.

[Footscray]

Originally Posted by transplant99

In response though...I would say that in the entire country of Afghanistan, before it was liberated from the Taliban, women couldn't show their faces in public, they couldn't vote, they couldn't work and were treated like chattel by the hardcore element of the Muslim fanatics.

It's a fair example but it's one country at one point in time being ruled by hardcore fundamentalists. It has nothing to do with Islam or Christianity. Any faith taken to the extreme is dangerous. Look at post reconquista Spain, The Moors (muslims) were very tolerant of the Jewish population and granted them many freedoms but once the Christians came back into power they killed, forced out or converted every Jew in the country. I think there can be intolerant people (read morons) of any faith or political background, it has less to do with the individual religion and more with the individuals.

[Patek23]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Holy smokes what a load of BS this is.

I DO live in the South...and there is absolutely NO evidence of this nonsense anywhere.


Laughable.

In response though...I would say that in the entire country of Afghanistan, before it was liberated from the Taliban, women couldn't show their faces in public, they couldn't vote, they couldn't work and were treated like chattel by the hardcore element of the Muslim fanatics.

well I don't know where you live, but thats what she's told me about where she lives.


EDIT- after reading my post it didn't come across the way I meant it, I'll edit it to what I had meant (without rushing through in typing it up)

[Jayems]

Hahah, anyone watch that Trading Spouces with that christian fanatic? The big lady from Louisiana who went crazy? And the poor woman who had to go to her house, and was grilled by all the other christians. Man.. that was a solid 2 hours of TV.

Basically, it was putting new aged hippies (Not scientologists, but ...what are the called... ... is that right? anyway, the people who are all about the stars and when they fall to formation etc etc...) and putting them with a hardcore christian family from the south.

Hilarity ensues.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

Huge genaralizations? Mate, get a grip. If you are not able to see clear patterns in islamic "culture", you are blind. The whole "culture" revolves around a total disrespect towards women and non-muslims. I will ask you again - what do you know about islamic law and how it treats women and "infidels"? You will see a lot of tolerance there, I am sure.

Second, I wasnt talking about all Eastern cultures, that should be obvious. For example, Japanese culture is perfectly compatible with western culture and they can enrich each other, as it has happened in business for example (US companies applying Japanese methods). I am yet to see a single positive thing coming out of islamic "culture."

As for the good muslims - they are the ones who are intelligent enough to drop the crap their culture is infested with. I would go as far as to say that they had to drop their culture (almost) altogether and adopted western culture (while keeping some of the "innocent islamic stuff"). Traditional islam is not compatible with western (judeo-christian-humanist) culture. You havent proved otherwise, other than the usual political correctness BS (all ideologies are even etc). Call me ignorant all you want, I will call you a blind apologist. So we are even.

So let me get this straight.

You clearly don't like "Islamic culture" because you believe it is incompatible with western culture. At the same time you don't like western culture and the evils of democracy and state and socialism and whatnot that we embrace?

If I may, I think your beliefs can be summed up with just a few words...

"Western culture is bad. Islamic culture is also bad because it is not like western culture."

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Ah yes, the typical old argument.

FoL - My people are better than other peoples.
Footscray - No they're not.
FoL - Prove it.

I did not say that. I said that certain cultural elements are superior to others. To me, respect towards liberty (as a cultural element) is superior to lack of respect towards liberty. I am not suprised that you see it otherwise.

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Why don't YOU prove why Western culture is inherently 'superior' to Islamic culture? Give us some sources, primary resources, authors who back up your statements, etc., etc.

Western culture is more developed, wealthy and most importantly - enjoys higher degree of freedom. It is not perfect (thanks to socialists like yourself), but is in fabric of western culture, whether collectivists like it or not.

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Besides, it's not my responsibility to tell you why your 'theory' is wrong, you have to prove why it's right. Your hypothesis appears to be 'Western Culture is the best, most perfect culture on the planet, and others _must_ assimilate to ours, or be judged worthless' (except for the 'compatible' Japanese, of course).

Nonsense, you are lying again. All I said was - if one wants to live in a western society, he better be prepared to respect its culture. If he doesnt want to do so, he can stay home. Where do you see _must_ assimilate in that? I am not saying he must fall in love with coke and hot dogs, but respect towards individual rights is necessary.

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

I'd love to spend hours debating this with you, but I (very seriously) equate it to trying to explain to a white supremecist why blacks should be equal to whites. Distasteful, and not my responsibility. That's the nice thing about 'democracy', you're allowed to be as irrationally bigoted as you want!

I dont think this is worthy of a response.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by Footscray

For you to be telling people that all muslims hate outsiders and repress women and then fire back at me for calling you on a stereotype with no evidence is laughable.
The day we as adults need to justify to other adults from the ground level up why racism and stereotyping are wrong is a pretty sad one.
edited to remove needless sarcasm

Footscray are you for real? Where did I say that all muslims hate outsiders? I asked you if you know how _islamic law_ treats women and infidels. And now I am asking you that again. No response so far.

If islamic law treats nonmuslims differently than muslim (men), and if muslims are taught to follow islamic law, does that not tell you something?

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

Islamic fundamentalists or islamic people? Fundamentalists of any religion have trouble being compatible with anyone else. That's why they're fundamentalists. No shinguard their values aren't compatible.

What you said, is that you should be able to judge all islamic people based on the actions/beliefs of some fundamentalists. Perhaps you should prove that all islamic people are fundamentalists.

Fundamentals, not fundamentalists:

-Of or relating to the foundation or base; elementary: the fundamental laws of the universe.

-Forming or serving as an essential component of a system or structure; central: an example that was fundamental to the argument.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by Flaming Homer

Moron.

Flaming homer, you are the last person to call anyone a moron. Take a look in the mirror. As for the rest of your drivel, Transplant took care of that.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

So let me get this straight.

You clearly don't like "Islamic culture" because you believe it is incompatible with western culture. At the same time you don't like western culture and the evils of democracy and state and socialism and whatnot that we embrace?

If I may, I think your beliefs can be summed up with just a few words...

"Western culture is bad. Islamic culture is also bad because it is not like western culture."

In a few words:

Western culture (along with democracy) is not perfect, but still better than fascist theocratic regimes.

As for embracing socialism, socialism is a sick element in western culture, I will admit that. However, I would argue that socialism is _not_ natural to western culture, rather, it is what remained from the ages of small tribal cultures of mammoth hunters and berry pickers. For more see the Nobel Prize award winner F.A. Hayek and his theory of cultural evolution.

To me, western culture is based on respect towards private property rights and invidualism (as opposed to collectivism, natural to tribal societies). The fact that it was infested with socialism and (modern) democracy (remember, in ancient Greece, not all people had the right to vote-only those who owned property-land) is sad enough so there is no reason to make things even worse.

[Footscray]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

I asked you if you know how _islamic law_ treats women and infidels. And now I am asking you that again. No response so far.

I've never engaged you on any question of Islamic law or had the least interest in doing so. I said that you were guilty of stereotyping and that I find that unacceptable. Many many of the various institutions in our world have undesirable elements. Part of having a functional pluralist society with respect for others is giving the individuals within respect independent of their background. You must be failing to see the irony in your stress of individualism over collectivism in the context.