Adam Fox & the NCAA "Loophole?"

[zarrell]

What about changing the rules so that NCAA players have to declare for the draft like they do in football?

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Maybe this is what the NHL wants - a subtle way for big-market American teams to gain a systematic edge in talent acquisition. Maybe the board of governors feels it’s better for the league that Adam Fox plays in New York than in Calgary.

In the absence of any measures by the league to address this, Canadian and small-market teams will be disadvantaged in drafting and development. Management of those franchises have to take the flight risk of college players seriously, and will increasingly shy away from drafting those prospects, leaving them to fall into the laps of the New Yorks, Bostons, etc of the league.

Yeah this isn't going to go away as US college is becoming a bigger pipeline to NHL talent.

[Classic_Sniper]

I posted a few weeks ago that I thought the Flames would have a shot at keeping Adam Fox had the right side not been so deep. Hamilton-Hamonic-Stone-Andersson. Fox probably wanted a spot in the NHL right away and no way would he supplant any of those guys on the depth chart at the time. Maybe without Hamilton and Hamonic in the picture he signs. Maybe not though, so who knows.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

This was my idea.

IMO it's such an easy solution. The rule is there to protect players so that a team doesn't hold their rights forever if they don't offer them a contract.

But in the situation where the team wants to sign you, and if they are willing to give you a max ELC, then you should retain their rights.

At that point it's not like another team can offer you more money, you're getting the max contract, so no reason why you shouldn't be signing with the team that drafted you.

Even if the player still refuses to sign, then this would be a more fair scenario from a negotiating aspect. The Flames/Hurricanes would have no longer had to rush in negotiations due to the impending UFA status being a barrier. Other teams would have to negotiate in good faith and provide fair value in return to trade for a top prospect.

Should be the same thing with a junior player re-entering the draft after two seasons if they don't sign (I'm surprised we don't see this more actually), as long as a team offers the player a Max ELC contract they should retain their rights. Think of it as like a qualifying offer for drafted players.

So, the solution is that a team could keep a players rights forever as long as they offer a max contract?

I think the NHL intended that all players, whether junior, college or European, could not have their rights held in perpetuity by any team. You assume teams will always deal in good faith. We know that is not always the case.

It's basically to prevent players from being black balled in the NHL by teams with a grudge.

If a player wants to wait the 4 years, he becomes free to deal with any team. There is certainly financial incentive for any player to sign before that time is up.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

I posted a few weeks ago that I thought the Flames would have a shot at keeping Adam Fox had the right side not been so deep. Hamilton-Hamonic-Stone-Andersson. Fox probably wanted a spot in the NHL right away and no way would he supplant any of those guys on the depth chart at the time. Maybe without Hamilton and Hamonic in the picture he signs. Maybe not though, so who knows.

I think that's just an excuse for what was really happening - he wanted to sign in NY.

[transplant99]

Im not sure this is all that big of a problem really.

I mean how many instances of guys forcing their way to a team they want has actually happened versus how many NCAA draftees there have been?

I dont know exact numbers but in the last decade there has to of been what...100 guys out of the NCAA drafted?

Guys who used their leverage to go elsewhere is what....5? 7?

Maybe a higher number with guys that never made the cut so to speak.

And again, its no different than major junior guys who can do something similar if they are willing to forego getting money until that time. Teams cant have control forever as i believe you would be getting into some pretty deep legal issues doing so.

I dont know...just seems like its a big deal right now because Fox is actually starting to turn into an upper echelon player. So many others just fall to the wayside.

Yeah this isn't going to go away as US college is becoming a bigger pipeline to NHL talent.

Is it though?

For sure the USA is supplying way more players than they once did, but i would argue the vast majority of those are throuhg the USNDT and US junior leagues rather than via the college route.

[The Yen Man]

Originally Posted by Nelson

It’s so funny that the best Flames draft pick of the past decade refused to play for the team. I mean, the Flames couldn’t trade for Adam Fox if he was willing to play for the team now. He has a higher PPG than any Flames forward, and he’s a 23 year old RHD. I have to laugh to keep from crying.

Sorry, but hyperbole much? Fox has had half a year so far where he's been good, and now he's the best draft pick in the past decade? I guess he's already proven to have a better career than Monahan, Gaudreau, and Tkatchuk?

[The Yen Man]

Originally Posted by Sandman

Fox was taken by the Flames at Jim Cummins' insistence. He supposedly "dug his heels in"and basically demanded they not leave the draft without Fox. Just shows how many question marks there were about him, despite his eye-popping offensive numbers.

I look at it this way. Would we have gotten Lindholm and Hanifin without the Fox sweetener? I'd argue no. So it was still worth it to burn a third round to draft him, because he became an important trade chip.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

I posted a few weeks ago that I thought the Flames would have a shot at keeping Adam Fox had the right side not been so deep. Hamilton-Hamonic-Stone-Andersson. Fox probably wanted a spot in the NHL right away and no way would he supplant any of those guys on the depth chart at the time. Maybe without Hamilton and Hamonic in the picture he signs. Maybe not though, so who knows.

This does not explain why he didn't sign in Carolina, though. At the time the Hurricanes had Faulk, Pesce and vanReimsdyk on the right side, so arguably more room for Fox. I think it is pretty well established that there was never a real option for the Flames to sign Fox. He was pretty obviously intent to play out his college career into free agency.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by jg13

someone mentioned in a different thread that if the team that drafts the NCAA player offers a max ELC that they should retain the players rights automatically. I think thats the right way to go.

This loophole needs to be closed.

That should be the rule for both junior and NCAA players. You retain their rights for the next 3 years of the contract if they refuse to sign and then treat their next 4 years like you treat their RFA years. They then become UFA's 7 years after the first max offer was submitted to their agent.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Is it really a loop hole? A junior player could not sign, re-enter the draft, and not re-sign again and become a free agent. Same 4 year time table.
The difference perhaps is a college player has more reason to complete their 4 years and become a free agent.

Kind of an apples to oranges scenario though. The reason it's an issue is for a college player the decision is 'if I go play early, I won't be able to stay at school'

My solution is simply extend the time that a team retains rights by another year. So if a college player wants to be a UFA they have to go play in Europe for a year after school.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by btimbit

Kind of an apples to oranges scenario though. The reason it's an issue is for a college player the decision is 'if I go play early, I won't be able to stay at school'

My solution is simply extend the time that a team retains rights by another year. So if a college player wants to be a UFA they have to go play in Europe for a year after school.

Or as MrMike suggested above, change draft eligibility from 18- to 19-years-old.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Or as MrMike suggested above, change draft eligibility from 18- to 19-years-old.

Was that not talked about many years ago but the conclusion was it wouldnt be legal or something?

Maybe it was one of the other big 3 but i remember it at least being discussed.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

So, the solution is that a team could keep a players rights forever as long as they offer a max contract?

I think the NHL intended that all players, whether junior, college or European, could not have their rights held in perpetuity by any team. You assume teams will always deal in good faith. We know that is not always the case.

It's basically to prevent players from being black balled in the NHL by teams with a grudge.

If a player wants to wait the 4 years, he becomes free to deal with any team. There is certainly financial incentive for any player to sign before that time is up.

Wouldn't really happen though. No team is just going to hold a player hostage his whole career, and any player would be stupid to do that to themselves.

This leads to two outcomes IMO:

A) Player now realizing that he just can't walk as a UFA to where he wants and that he has less negotiating power to make this happen now just ends up signing with the team that drafted him.

B) The player still refuses to sign the max deal and the team would know that he doesn't want to sign there and would be able to pursue a trade. But since there is no threat of signing some where as a UFA the team would be able to negotiate on a trade with a more fair return.

Biggest difference though is without the clock hanging over the teams head it leads to a more fair process in either outcome.

[Nelson]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

Sorry, but hyperbole much? Fox has had half a year so far where he's been good, and now he's the best draft pick in the past decade? I guess he's already proven to have a better career than Monahan, Gaudreau, and Tkatchuk?

My reasons are that I trust Dom Luszczyshyn. Based on GSVA, he has Adam Fox at 2.01 GSVA, which puts Adam Fox at 8th in the Hart Trophy race. He also has Adam Fox as the runaway winner for the Norris Trophy. I don't remember a Flames' draft pick ever getting to comparable heights. I guess the closest would be Gaudreau's 99 point season in 2018-2019. Maybe if you deem Giordano to be like a Flames' draft pick, then his 2018-2019 season could also be arguable? But I'm not sure if either got Hart Trophy consideration in 2018-2019.

[sureLoss]

The NHLPA isn't just going to allow the NHL to change rules to give players less freedoms and choices.

At least not without the NHL giving the players concessions in other areas of the CBA the players want to change in their favor.

[blankall]

The US sports and athletics system, generally, is based around college, as opposed to the Canadian one, which is based around junior hockey leagues. As hockey grows in the USA, this is only going to get worse, and I have no idea how this allowed to happen. Can you imaging NFL or NBA players being able to become UFAs just because they played in the NCAA. It's absolutely absurd.

It's hard to say that the Flames got screwed by this, as there's a reason Fox went 66th overall, and not in the first round. However, the current system is just ridiculous.

[lazypucker]

If a player doesn't want to play for your team, there is nothing you can do really, contract or rule changes or not. Look at Eric Lindros and the Nordiques...

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by blankall

The US sports and athletics system, generally, is based around college, as opposed to the Canadian one, which is based around junior hockey leagues. As hockey grows in the USA, this is only going to get worse, and I have no idea how this allowed to happen. Can you imaging NFL or NBA players being able to become UFAs just because they played in the NCAA. It's absolutely absurd.

It's hard to say that the Flames got screwed by this, as there's a reason Fox went 66th overall, and not in the first round. However, the current system is just ridiculous.

Maybe i am misunderstanding you, but that happens now i believe.

Once undergrad players declare for the draft, they lose NCAA eligibility. If they dont get drafted, they are immediately UFA because they cannot go back to school and play.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Nelson

My reasons are that I trust Dom Luszczyshyn. Based on GSVA, he has Adam Fox at 2.01 GSVA, which puts Adam Fox at 8th in the Hart Trophy race. He also has Adam Fox as the runaway winner for the Norris Trophy. I don't remember a Flames' draft pick ever getting to comparable heights. I guess the closest would be Gaudreau's 99 point season in 2018-2019. Maybe if you deem Giordano to be like a Flames' draft pick, then his 2018-2019 season could also be arguable? But I'm not sure if either got Hart Trophy consideration in 2018-2019.

I bet that Dion Phaneuf's second or third seasons would have been close.