Cartoons upset Danish Muslims

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by FireFly

Maybe it's only possible for religions to be free when people don't insist on insulting them? I don't think the Danish Muslims are fighting right now to try and prove they're better, rather they're fighting over the insult the Danes have thrown at them and their religion.

"What is freedom of expression? Without the freedom to offend, it ceases to exist."

- Salman Rushdie

Thats your signature Fly. Unfortunately Mr Rushdie has found the Muslims dont like what he has to say either.
Adolf was a Catholic by the way.

[TheyCallMeBruce]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/religion_...azkxBHNlYwN0bQ--

I found this pretty funny...

...Wouldn't it be scary if this whole cartoon fiasco was the seed that started WW3?

[Cheese]

A retort from the USA today on these goings on...

The United States urged Muslims angered by newspaper cartoons of the Islamic prophet Mohammed to also condemn frequent anti-Semitic and anti-Christian "hate speech" in the Islamic world.

The US chimes in

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Cheese

"What is freedom of expression? Without the freedom to offend, it ceases to exist."

- Salman Rushdie

Thats your signature Fly. Unfortunately Mr Rushdie has found the Muslims dont like what he has to say either.
Adolf was a Catholic by the way.

There's a difference between offending someone and insulting them. Since the disctinction might be too fine for you to compute, I'll make it easy for you....

If you say my ass looks big in these pants, I might be offended. If you call me a fat cow, that's an insult, and you'd better duck.

And while Adolf was a Catholic, was it a religious war? It certainly didn't start out that way. Nor did it end that way, though religions certainly took a beating in the interim. And Adolf, whether he wanted it or not, was also, technically Jewish. As a Cataholic and a Jew, he should have known better. After all, according to 'the guy who may or may not have ever existed'ians, the Jews are central to the Revelation, and should be assisted in their battles, not impeded.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by TheyCallMeBruce

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/religion_...azkxBHNlYwN0bQ--

I found this pretty funny...

...Wouldn't it be scary if this whole cartoon fiasco was the seed that started WW3?

I was thinking the same thing. Don't most conflicts start with something small, and just snowball into the massive events that they are? It's a chain reaction.
Pretty scary stuff, and it does display how volitile things are in international relations right now. Sometimes it seems like a major conflict is right around the corner. Hopefully cooler heads prevail, and the extremists (on all sides) are completely outnumbered by rational human beings.

[Cheese]

YEEEEEESHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH Fly girl....Not much difference at all!!!! And I dont care how big your ass is!


of·fend
1. To cause displeasure, anger, resentment, or wounded feelings in.
2. To be displeasing or disagreeable to: Onions offend my sense of smell.
3. a. To transgress; violate: offend all laws of humanity.
b. To cause to sin.


1. To result in displeasure: Bad manners may offend.
2. a. To violate a moral or divine law; sin.
b. To violate a rule or law: offended against the curfew.


in·sult

1. a. To treat with gross insensitivity, insolence, or contemptuous rudeness.
b. To affront or demean: an absurd speech that insulted the intelligence of the audience.

2. Obsolete To make an attack on.

1. To behave arrogantly.
2. To give offense; offend: a speech that was intended to insult.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Cheese

YEEEEEESHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH Fly girl....Not much difference at all!!!! And I dont care how big your ass is!


of·fend
1. To cause displeasure, anger, resentment, or wounded feelings in.
2. To be displeasing or disagreeable to: Onions offend my sense of smell.
3. a. To transgress; violate: offend all laws of humanity.
b. To cause to sin.


1. To result in displeasure: Bad manners may offend.
2. a. To violate a moral or divine law; sin.
b. To violate a rule or law: offended against the curfew.


in·sult

1. a. To treat with gross insensitivity, insolence, or contemptuous rudeness.
b. To affront or demean: an absurd speech that insulted the intelligence of the audience.

2. Obsolete To make an attack on.

1. To behave arrogantly.
2. To give offense; offend: a speech that was intended to insult.

I would say there's a huge difference when we're talking definitions 1 and 2 vs 1a, b and 2. To offend is mild, to insult is gross. Splitting hairs maybe, but I would imagine that if you told a Muslim you didn't believe in their religion and thought it stupid, they'd be offended, but if you take their scripture and attack it, that's an insult. And that's what they believe the cartoonist did. You may offend me with some of the things you say about religion, and that's your right. But when you insult me personally for my beliefs, you've crossed the line. I don't think Rushdie was telling people insulting others is okay. I'm quite sure he wasn't. Sometimes we offend others with our own beliefs, but that doesn't mean we need to insult them in the process.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Cheese

"What is freedom of expression? Without the freedom to offend, it ceases to exist."

- Salman Rushdie

Thats your signature Fly. Unfortunately Mr Rushdie has found the Muslims dont like what he has to say either.
Adolf was a Catholic by the way.

Just the crazy ones who believe in that fatwa calling for his death. It's an interesting thing what Osama has done to globalise militant Islamism. Used to be centuries ago in the Caliphate that only a very few Caliphs that were versed and respected could issue a fatwa. Now that Osama is issuing fatwas and militant clerics and terrorists all over the world seem to be sending them out all the time is contributing to all this. It brings free-speech to the common Muslim and it's sort of the like the whole protestant thing of religion becoing a personal matter...and so everybody takes it into their own hands...if they happen to have a gun in that hand they use it too.

And yeah, sorry endlosung der judenfrage, final solution to the jewish question... sorry my German totally sucks and I don't have the little dots on my keyboard. There are plenty of papers on the subject of Nazi athesism, and as for the views of those that initiated the actual final solution, go read the minutes of the Wannsee Conference.

And its part of my whole argument is that you shouldn't lump all religious people into the same group. So Hitler was a catholic by name (obviously not in personal belief or action)...does that mean that all catholics are Hitler? Of course not? Just because some religious people are total fanatics or Stockwell Day, it doesn't mean that all of them are or feel the same way.

That's the problem with the media, all you see are the burning embassies and gun-toting terrorists, when the world is full of moderate muslims that absolutely hate the violence that's going on and argue that those militant protestors are the ones who are neglecting the true meaning of their religion. I'm sure there's plenty of "turn the other cheek" stuff in the Koran. Instead they go by religious custom and protocol (that's not even in the Koran) that says that you should make images of anything lest you have idolatry. By that logic, any picture of a person, statue, or even photograph should be destroyed.

My main issue is NOT about religions starting wars...although they certainly have and continue to do so....in the name of politics.

I just think you have things backwards. Wars are started politically - but often in the name of religion.

The Crusades? There was a problem with an entire class of society that were warriors/mercenaries with nothing to do but fight wars in Europe. Popes wanted to consolidate their power and fill their coffers. Islam was growing and increasingly encroaching politically and militarily upon "Christian" territory. Solution to all of those problems? Start a few Crusades and tell the troops that in return for fighting, all your sins are forgotten since you are the Pope and by Palpal Infallibility, everything you say is true.

Did Napolean conquer Europe because he wanted everbody to be Catholic? No, he wanted to be friggin' Emperor of the world, under the guise of being primus inter pares.

Did the Spanish Conquistadors come to convert the South American masses because of religion? No they slaughtered them all because they wanted Inca gold. Their excuse? They were all pagans and going to hell anyway.

Did the British invade and occupy much of the known world because they wanted to convert everybody to the Anglican Church? No, they wanted Empire and trading routes and colonies but pretty much let everybody practice whatever religion they wanted but had no second thoughts about wiping out many indiginous inhabitants as they were doing it.

Did millions and millions of people die under Nazi, atheist Soviet, Chinese (and other east asian) communist regimes because of religious reasons? No, it was political and economic.

I think you believe religion is the root of human evil because you are fortunate enough to live in a free society where all the other explicit political and economic evils that were really just horrific throughout human history have been suppressed enough that religion stands out as being oppressive and dangerous in our liberal society. If religion was gone, do you think human nature would be less violent? I highly doubt it. Muslim frustration stems from centuries of political and economic humilation in their eyes when Western Countries support nuclear Isreal and occupy their countries with military forces and apply double standards and oppressive sanctions against them...and make them perform scenes from brokeback mountain in their own jails.

The mohammed comics was just the straw that broke their backs (again). Even if none of them were muslims, there'd be something else that would cause people to riot and kill each other. Look at the riots in France, it was just primarily poverty and alienation of that whole immigrant class that incited all the violence.

I think secular society and has way more knocks against it than religion does in human history.

And using a dictionary to prove a point is not cool

There's no context.
I think it'sclear that in this context, if you are offended, it's your displeasure at something happened external to you and being insulted is having a direct and personal attack on you.

[Cowperson]

That's the problem with the media, all you see are the burning embassies and gun-toting terrorists, when the world is full of moderate muslims that absolutely hate the violence that's going on and argue that those militant protestors are the ones who are neglecting the true meaning of their religion.

In fairness, mainstream media accounts have noted "hundreds" and, in one instance, "thousands," (Palestinians, I think), not tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands or millions.

In other words, its our own imaginations that are running somewhat rampant with this.

Obviously, considering there are 1.3 billion Muslims, this is actually still a small event.

It could spin into something bigger though . . . . . obviously there is a certain element within Islam using this to exploit divisions.

Cowperson

[RougeUnderoos]

This whole thing is positively mind-buggering. I don't go in for this religious stuff at all, but if I did I don't think I'd care what some political cartoonist in Damascus has to say about it.

Don't they know we break their rules all the time? I mean billions of people ignore Islam, ignore the entire religion, even actively pursue different religions, but they don't riot over that. Then some cartoonist draws a picture he breaks one specific rule, and they go bat****. It doesn't make sense.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

This whole thing is positively mind-buggering. I don't go in for this religious stuff at all, but if I did I don't think I'd care what some political cartoonist in Damascus has to say about it.

Don't they know we break their rules all the time? I mean billions of people ignore Islam, ignore the entire religion, even actively pursue different religions, but they don't riot over that. Then some cartoonist draws a picture he breaks one specific rule, and they go bat****. It doesn't make sense.

That's the problem with an insular, isolated culture. When the outside world catches up to you, sometimes you have no idea what's going on and just want to hit something. Like I said in another post, this is just another straw breaking the camel's back for a religion and culture that feels humilated.

In their culture, publishing a caricature of Mohammed is probably for us like somebody posting compromising pictures of your family on the internet...

I have a feeling these sorts of things will be happening a couple of times a year from now on.

I wonder how the people of the Muslim country Dubai feel about all this, probably the richer you are, the less militant you are.

[azzarish]

Originally Posted by Flame On

All I know is that its so laughable of the muslims who are irate that their religious leaders/icons are portrayed as being violent and or having bombs and in order to show their disgust they turn to violence and bombs!
If you want some respect perhaps you should be able to show it yourselves as a whole. My 2.

The Prophet Mohammed was never violent nor did he have bombs. That was the whole point. I'm not condoning the violence but maybe you should delve a bit deeper in to why the issue has caused so much anger.

[azzarish]

Originally Posted by Frank the Tank

There was an image of the Prophet on my grilled cheese today. I ate it with some ketchup. Am I going to hell?

Haha. Thats so funny! Yeah I nearly fell off my chair.

If you don't believe in adhering to religious principles, don't make fun of them.

[RougeUnderoos]

BBC just ran a story about demonstrations in London. One of the demonstrators was dressed as a suicide bomber. He was on "licence" (parole I think) for dealing heroin and cocaine and is now back in jail.

[azzarish]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Well I think they do a good enough job making peoples minds up themselves. As with other religious zealots and their particular religions, nothing will stand in their way of ensuring that only their religion is left standing!
When will people wake up and see religion for what it really is?

Heres a few of the ongoing Muslim battles....

AFGHANISTAN: The war in Afghanistan is ongoing. Since Soviet troops withdrew, various Afghan groups have tried to eliminate their rivals. Although the Taliban strengthened their position in 1998 they have not achieved their final objective. Afghanistan harbours Osama bin Ladin, a wealthy Saudi Arabia dissident responsible for terrorist acts around the world. On 11 September 2001 members from bin Ladin's el Qaeda group highjacked 4 passenger jets in the USA, crashing one into the Pentagon and 2 into the World Trade Center, killing more than 2,000 citizens. The USA and its allies declared war on terrorism and counter-attacked, removing the Taliban from power. The war on terrorism and the el Qaeda continues.

ALGERIA: Armed Islamic groups formed and since 1992 have carried out attacks on key economic points, security forces, officials and foreigners. In 1995 Algeria's first multiparty presidential elections were held and the incumbent president Liamine Zeroual won 60% of the votes in a poll with a 75% turnout. The first multiparty legislative elections were held in June 1997 which were won by the National Democratic Rally, which holds the majority of seats along with the FLN. Although the armed wing of the FIS declared a ceasefire in October 1997, an extremist splinter group, the Islamic Armed Group (GIA), continued attacks. There is also evidence that many attacks are carried out by militias backed by the Algerian security forces. After years of civil strife, Amnesty International estimates that around 80,000 people have died
The Caucasus and Russia: The Central Asian republics have a long history of conflicts. Fighting breaks out regularly between warlords and religious groups calling for the establishment of Islamic states outside the Russian Federation. Russia is trying to hold on to the federation because the Caucasus is a vital supply route for the oil riches of the Caspian and Black Sea. With the break-up of the Soviet Union various groups fought for control in the republics. Conflicts from one republic spills over to the other and they continually blame each other for attacks. Chechnya, still part of Russia, was flung in an almost full-scale war in 1994-96 and, after a disastrous campaign, Russia was forced to re-evaluate its involvement in the area. In August 1999 Russia stepped up security in the Caucasus region as rebels from within Dagestan - a small republic where more than 100 languages are spoken - went on the attack in support of Chechnyan Muslim groups who claim independence from Russia. In September 1999 Russia launched a ground invasion into the area to cut rebels off from Central Asian supply routes. By January 2000 Russia was once again involved in a full scale conflict in Chechnya. The Caucasus issue is complicated by the more than 50 different ethnic groups each insisting to proclaim their religious convictions on the area. The situation holds serious danger for neighbouring countries, Kazakhstan, Georgia and Russia itself.

EYGPT: Fundamentalist Muslim rebels seek to topple the secular Egyptian government. At least 1,200 people have perished since the beginning of the rebellion. The conflict was primarily waged as an urban guerrilla/terrorist war. The opposition Muslim Brotherhood took part in elections in 2000, indicating that they felt armed force would not work.

INDONESIA: The struggle on the Indonesia islands is complicated by leaders of pro- and anti-independence movements, and by religious conflicts. More than 500 churches have been burned down or damaged by Muslims over the past six years. Both the Christians and Muslims blame each other for the violence and attempts at reconciliation made little progress. After a bloody struggle East Timor gained independence in 1999. The hostilities on other islands continue to claim dozens of lives, to such an extent that the break-up of Indonesia seem imminent.

INDIA/PAKISTAN: Muslim separatists in the Indian section declared a holy war against the mostly-Hindu India and started attacks in 1989, mainly from Pakistan-occupied section of Kashmir, and from Pakistan and Afghanistan. The conflict continues, with Pakistan also crushing rebellions with brute force in their section.

IRAQ: Supports Islamic terrorist acts around the world. Differing culture and religious groups within Iraq continues to clash with #####e Muslims.

ISRAEL: Within its own borders, Israel continues to battle various Muslim organizations that seek independence for a Palestine state, areas made up of the Gaza strip, West.Bank, and part of Jerusalem. There is heavy international pressure on Israel to recognise a Palestinian state. The area of what today is Palestine was settled by Semitic tribes at a very early date. It was then called Canaan, and controlled by Canaanite tribes for more than 1,000 years. In about 1500 BC Hebrew, or Jewish, tribes began to enter the area. They later came into conflict with a people of Greek origin known as the Philistines. It is from them that the term Palestine is derived.

IRAN: After the Iranian Revolution in 1979 toppled the government of the Shah, the Mujahadeen Khalq soon began a bloody guerrilla war against the new Islamic government. The Mujahadeen are currently based in Iraq and conduct cross-border raids into Iran, as well as conducting urban guerrilla operations in the cities and conducting political assassinations. Iran occasionally launches raids against Khalq bases in Iraq.

KOSOVO: The ethnic Albanian KLA (Kosovo Liberation Army) in this Serbian province fought a guerilla war against Serbia to claim the region. Beginning in February 1999, Albanians were forced out of the province, prompting NATO to attack Serbia. By July 1999 Serb troops were forced out of Kosovo, only to open an avenue for Albanian Kosovars to attack Serb Kosovars. The Albanian Muslims have since burned down dozens of centuries-old Christian churches. In an effort to establish a Greater Albania, Albanian Muslim rebels also launched attacks in Macedonia.

NIGERIA: There are violent religious clashes in the city of Kaduna in northern Nigeria beginning February 21 2004 and have continued. Kaduna is the second largest city in the north. The clashes followed a march by tens of thousands of Christians to protest the proposal to introduce Muslim sharia law as the criminal code throughout Kaduna state. Reports speak of rival armed gangs of Christians and Muslims roving the streets. Churches and mosques have been put to the torch. Corpses were seen lying in the streets and people's bodies hanging out of cars and buses, apparently killed while attempting to flee the violence. Local human rights workers said that more than 400 had been killed as a result of the clashes.

SUDAN: The largest country in Africa, has been plagued by a succession of unstable civilian and military governments since it gained independence in 1956 from an Anglo-Egyptian condominium. The long-running conflict continues between the Arab Muslim northerners of Sudan, (the base of the government), and the African Christians of the south. In the mid-90s Sudan was home to Osama bin Ladin, the international terrorist responsible for the World Trade Center attack. It is estimated that more than 1,2 million people have been killed in the Sudan war, brining devastation to the Sudanese economy.

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: At war with terrorism.

PHILIPPINES: The Phillipines armed forces, with assistance of US troops, are fighting Moslem rebels - they have been linked to Osama bin Laden's el Qaeda terrorist group - on the southern islands of the country. Muslim rebel groups seek autonomy/independence from the mostly Christian Philippines. One rebel group, the Abu Sayaf Group, is believed linked to Osama bin-Laden's Al-Qaida. This connection, plus their tactic of kidnapping and beheading Americans, led the United States to send Special Forces to aid the Philippine Army.

And your point is? What about the other 1000's of battles going on in the world that don't involve muslims.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by azzarish

If you don't believe in adhering to religious principles, don't make fun of them.

That's all well and good but what we (or at least I) can't understand is being so upset about it that you turn to violence. I mean if someone makes fun of what I believe in, well I won't like it, but they can just eff off, I'll ignore them and keep on doing what I'm doing. I don't need validation from some clown living half way across the world. If he doesn't like what I'm up to, if he doesn't believe what I believe, if he wants to make fun of it, he can go nuts.

If a cartoonist in Cairo makes fun of something I believe in, I think I'd have to be insane, a completely deranged lunatic, to demand that he have his head cut off for drawing it.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by azzarish

The Prophet Mohammed was never violent nor did he have bombs. That was the whole point. I'm not condoning the violence but maybe you should delve a bit deeper in to why the issue has caused so much anger.

Anger is fine, protest is fine, debate is fine, intelligent retaliation is fine (in the form of articles, etc). Incitement or carrying out of violence is not fine, threatening to kill people who insult islam is not fine. There may be reason for anger, but there is no reason that anger should mean torching embassies.

Some of these dickheads who hold up signs like "behead those who insult islam" in London are a disgrace to humanity. Living in and prospering in the country while threatening to commit attacks against that same country. Hypocritical *******s. These guys deserve to be prosecuted for incitement of hate and uttering threats, and should be deported as well. They have nothing to offer but ignorance and violence. BTW, I know there are many muslim groups condemning the violence as well, which is good to see. Hopefully their collective voice will be stronger than the radicals.

[azzarish]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

That's all well and good but what we (or at least I) can't understand is being so upset about it that you turn to violence. I mean if someone makes fun of what I believe in, well I won't like it, but they can just eff off, I'll ignore them and keep on doing what I'm doing. I don't need validation from some clown living half way across the world. If he doesn't like what I'm up to, if he doesn't believe what I believe, if he wants to make fun of it, he can go nuts.

If a cartoonist in Cairo makes fun of something I believe in, I think I'd have to be insane, a completely deranged lunatic, to demand that he have his head cut off for drawing it.

Yes, it is crazy what is happening, and I don't agree with it for one second, but what you have to understand Islam is currently an emotionally charged religion especially as many Muslims feel the West is unfairly treating them with the situations in Iraq and Afghanistan, there is a lot of anger, bad blood and emotion over this. Add to that the Israeli/Palestine conflict. It's just all created a lot of hatred, but not amongst everyone, just a minority, and unfortunately it is always the minority that comes to the forefront and tarnishes the religion as a whole. So all I'm saying is why give motivation to spur more violence to this minority when you know the smallest thing can spark off full blown riots, demonstrations and flag burnings. It's like adding fuel to the fire, and giving even the average muslim who an excuse to go out and run riot.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by azzarish

And your point is? What about the other 1000's of battles going on in the world that don't involve muslims.

the point was....drum roll please...what I said in the thread...here let me copy it for you again..

Muslims are "bad guys?"

Does this kind of incident alter your opinion of Muslims and if so, favourably or unfavourably?

Cowperson

Well I think they do a good enough job making peoples minds up themselves. As with other religious zealots and their particular religions, nothing will stand in their way of ensuring that only their religion is left standing!
When will people wake up and see religion for what it really is?

Heres a few of the ongoing Muslim battles....

Ive dealt with the other religions in other threads...this one is about Muslims.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by azzarish

And your point is? What about the other 1000's of battles going on in the world that don't involve muslims.

How does that justify the ones that do?