Coaching, leadership and a top 5 list

[Joborule]

I really don't see how Johnny can be part of the lineup at all next season at this point. There's been enough seasons, and enough instances of him disappearing when the going gets tough that's he's not going to be an effective player, when you NEED your best players to be so in those type of games. That's what playoff hockey is all about, and Johnny is useless for that.

As for coaching. Defnietly don't see Ward being an effective enough coach to be the permanent solution. After the usual post-firing bump teams have when removing a coach mid-season, he's been pretty mediocre since then. Lots of flat, uninspired performances in games that the team should've had more jump, and quite frankly are the favourites. The roster as a whole needs work, so not all on him, but it's time to bring in a coach that can work with more than the sum of his parts. That's what makes having a good coach worth it.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Iggy City

You don't even need a top 5. One will do:

1. Move the team to a new city.

Then GTFO of here. Lots of teams in other cities to cheer for. Take Flash with you.

[FanIn80]

On Johnny/Monny:

I think the "book" on defending against Johnny took a while to write, but it's now been written.

At first, people just tried to rush him, but Johnny would burn them and find an open man (usually Monny). Then people tried to give him room, but then he'd just burn them himself. Now, people have figured out that the way to shut him down is to rush him while taking away his lanes. 1-2 guys pressure Johnny while another guy stays tight on his targets (Monny, Gio, etc).

Opponents have realized that if you rush him, he's going to move the puck or try to force the shot. Take away his targets, and you and up with an almost certain giveaway or a just a bad shot.

Monny looks bad out there in those situations, because he's a sniper that no longer gets the puck in optimal situations. He's not a two-way player. He just puts pucks inside nets. He doesn't need the puck spoon fed to him, either. He's capable of finding it laying on the ice somewhere and depositing it inside a 4' cage. The problem is that his winger is either being forced to give it away, pass it to somewhere no one can get it or put it on net from an angle that doesn't allow for any follow up net-front action.

Ultimately, I think it's time to trade Gaudreau. I think you do it now before the season runs out and there's yet another playoff (or late season) failure on his resume. There are teams out there that can absolutely make use of his talents (which are quite considerable), unfortunately Calgary is no longer one of them.

If trading him isn't an option, then separating Monahan from him has to happen. Not for a shift or two, or even a period or two. Separate them for games, weeks, a month at least. Give Monny time with someone like Tkachuk and Mangiapane, who, just as a bi-product of how they play, will create opportunities for Monahan to rediscover his touch around the net again. Then the confidence will come back, and I am certain he'll become the play-driving (not play-making) Center I suspect he is.

Put Gaudreau and Lindholm together. They have chemistry and Lindy is the two-guy that can help to clean up Gaudreau's messes. Who knows? Maybe if the giveaways are no longer as fruitful because of Lindholm, then teams will adjust and Johnny will get his mojo back once more...

I'm reaching, I know, but I still have a lot of faith in Monahan's skill. This guy knows how to score goals, and has ice water for blood. I just think we need to commit to a long term plan of getting him away from Johnny.

[TheSquatch]

Gaudreau looks like he's playing with broken ribs. Doesn't want any contact at all, won't initiate, and he's just coasting out there. His play with the puck has been uninspiring, but his play without the puck was just shockingly bad last night I thought, James Neal bad, no engagement at all.

Put him on a bus if that's his commitment level.

[Saint Troy]

So many sacred cows on this team, the fact they continue to roll out Lucic on a pp unit, and refuse to break up Monahan/Gaudreau & Hanafin/Hamonic is indictment on the culture of this team. Seems like the coaching staff is happier to placate egos than demand excellence.

[JohnnyB]

To me, Gaudreau's play looks frustrated and demotivated this season. He had a brief period this season of looking like he was having some fun, but for the most part has looked disappointed and frustrated all season, so he has no spark and no swagger. He's often playing like he expects the play to die.

I understand Gaudreau being frustrated if he is so, because the league has done a terrible job of policing the hacking and slashing he has dealt with. That hacking, which really should not be tolerated by the refs, is certainly part of the way teams have learned to play against him. I don't think it's as simple as the league has just figured him out though. He has enough talent that he should be able to find ways to still get an edge on opponents, but he's lacking that confidence and fire right now.

I wouldn't deal him unless he continues to struggle under a new coach. Other pieces should be moved first. He should only go if the team is being blown up or if there's a true number 1 C involved.

[Spinach]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

Meh, when there's so many points, you gotta start looking at the decision maker at the top.

Treliving can go.

I don't know. He strikes me as someone who'd make a great president of hockey operations, because he's intelligent, thoughtful and handles internal matters as varied as the Bill Peters and Chris Snow situations with equanimity and poise.

Lately, Treliving seems gunshy about making a major move (disregarding Peters, because that decision was essentially made for him). I maintain that a big change was needed after the Colorado series, and he did nothing except add a couple of minor bits and traded one albatross contract for another, to his biggest rival no less.

As President of Hockey Ops, Tre could still have a hand in re-signing pending FA's, which is a strength of his, and still be the guiding voice of the club. Maybe a GM who'll not deal away first-rounders, make shrewd UFA acquisitions, will actually draft defencemen and right shots, and be willing to move a core piece is what's needed. Whether such an animal exists, I have no idea. I also don't like the idea of Treliving hiring his own replacement, so someone else would have to hire the new GM if Tre became President...

[badradio]

IF Johnny has a broken rib he shouldn’t be dressed... some players can play hurt fine.. he can’t IF that’s his problem.

[Manhattanboy]

Funny how everyone is calling for Tkachuk to be appointed captain now. Even his future as a Flame is uncertain.

Tre seems to have received a pass for that three year bridge deal.

I was furious we didn’t lock up Tkachuk for a longer term and add that contract to his list of failures.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by 868904

If there is a top team that the Flames are similar to, it’s the Bruins.

Lindholm could evolve into a Bergeron
Tkachuk could evolve into Marchand
Monahan needs now to be at least on par with Krejci
Gaudreau needs to be the at Pasternak’s level (which he was last regular season)
The defense has similar pieces
The Bruins have an advantage in goal

The biggest difference to me is coaching.

The answer is available. Two elite coaches, two leaders for a team severely lacking in leadership (not a shot at Gio, he needs help)

'

This sounded like a show I might want to watch until the writer gave Gaudreau too many superpowers. Time travel, and the ability to become an entirely different species of hockey player?

[Manhattanboy]

And the fact that ownership recently gave Tre an extension is mind blowing.

He wasn’t going anywhere.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Funny how everyone is calling for Tkachuk to be appointed captain now. Even his future as a Flame is uncertain.

Tre seems to have received a pass for that three year bridge deal.

I was furious we didn’t lock up Tkachuk for a longer term and add that contract to his list of failures.

Is Tkachuk an 80 point player or a 50-60 point player? honestly I'm kinda glad he didn't get 8x8 or something

[SportsJunky]

I go back to what Peplinski said on After Hours last night. It's players like Tkachuk that are going to drag the rest of the team into battle. He understands the game better than most (Peplinski's words). You saw Monahan engage two games ago. I think Monahan understands what is required although we didn't really see it last night. Like Peplinski said, the more guys buy in and follow the leaders, the more you can spot the imposters. I thought we saw a bit of the old Giordano last night. Gagner was running around again and Gio was having none of it. The leaders have to set the tone.

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Is Tkachuk an 80 point player or a 50-60 point player? honestly I'm kinda glad he didn't get 8x8 or something

Really? With hindsight I would have done that deal in a minute.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Really? With hindsight I would have done that deal in a minute.

I remain sceptical that Tkachuk would have signed that deal.

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[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Funny how everyone is calling for Tkachuk to be appointed captain now. Even his future as a Flame is uncertain.

Tre seems to have received a pass for that three year bridge deal.

I was furious we didn’t lock up Tkachuk for a longer term and add that contract to his list of failures.

Treliving didn’t have the cap room to do it. And I suspect there was no market for guys like Frolik in the summer to make the cap room.

It was a bad off season to be sure.

Still waiting for something that makes up for it.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

On Johnny/Monny:

I think the "book" on defending against Johnny took a while to write, but it's now been written.

At first, people just tried to rush him, but Johnny would burn them and find an open man (usually Monny). Then people tried to give him room, but then he'd just burn them himself. Now, people have figured out that the way to shut him down is to rush him while taking away his lanes. 1-2 guys pressure Johnny while another guy stays tight on his targets (Monny, Gio, etc).

Opponents have realized that if you rush him, he's going to move the puck or try to force the shot. Take away his targets, and you and up with an almost certain giveaway or a just a bad shot.

Monny looks bad out there in those situations, because he's a sniper that no longer gets the puck in optimal situations. He's not a two-way player. He just puts pucks inside nets. He doesn't need the puck spoon fed to him, either. He's capable of finding it laying on the ice somewhere and depositing it inside a 4' cage. The problem is that his winger is either being forced to give it away, pass it to somewhere no one can get it or put it on net from an angle that doesn't allow for any follow up net-front action.

Ultimately, I think it's time to trade Gaudreau. I think you do it now before the season runs out and there's yet another playoff (or late season) failure on his resume. There are teams out there that can absolutely make use of his talents (which are quite considerable), unfortunately Calgary is no longer one of them.

If trading him isn't an option, then separating Monahan from him has to happen. Not for a shift or two, or even a period or two. Separate them for games, weeks, a month at least. Give Monny time with someone like Tkachuk and Mangiapane, who, just as a bi-product of how they play, will create opportunities for Monahan to rediscover his touch around the net again. Then the confidence will come back, and I am certain he'll become the play-driving (not play-making) Center I suspect he is.

Put Gaudreau and Lindholm together. They have chemistry and Lindy is the two-guy that can help to clean up Gaudreau's messes. Who knows? Maybe if the giveaways are no longer as fruitful because of Lindholm, then teams will adjust and Johnny will get his mojo back once more...

I'm reaching, I know, but I still have a lot of faith in Monahan's skill. This guy knows how to score goals, and has ice water for blood. I just think we need to commit to a long term plan of getting him away from Johnny.

Pretty sure the best way to defend anyone in this league is to rush them on a backcheck like you said and to take away their targets. There’s not that many ways to defend a winger.

I also think you’re building Monahan up way too high here. You say he knows how to score goals, but Gaudreau isn’t even that far away (0.33 gpg to Monahan’s 0.36 gpg). Difference is Monahan clearly doesn’t have the same level of playmaking as Gaudreau.

Monahan to me is sort of a one trick pony. He can score and is elite at elevating in tight. But he requires an extremely skilled playmaking winger to get him the puck in those areas. But ask yourself these questions, why can’t he do it himself? Why doe he need someone to feed him all the time. Why can’t he create his own shot? As a centerman, he goes up the middle, so he should be the one creating space for his wingers, not the other way around. He defers way too often to Gaudreau to do all the creating. That’s not fair, of course it’s going to create more turnovers for #13. iIt’s like playing rock, paper, scissors and always playing rock. It’s predictable and easy to defend.

Draisaitl, McDavid , Mackinnon and etc have routinely skated circles around Monahan. They look completely dominant in games whereas I hardly ever notice Monahan until he scores a goal. You have to be able to do more as a #1 center man than score goals. You have to be able to drive play and strip pucks and defend elite players. I just don’t see it #23. I actually think Lindholm in his short stint as a Flames center has shown me more than Monahan ever has.

I do agree with you that Gaudreau and Monahan should be split up. They’re great together when games are loose and wide open. But when games are tight, they both struggle together. Gaudreau would honestly do better with a faster center up the middle. I’ve seen Gaudreau dominate with a center like Mackinnon in the World Cup. That give and go Robinson and Gaudreau together was sublime. I thought going back to Gaudreau, Ryan and Lucic might help as they had chemistry together. Or even Gaudreau, Lindholm and Tkachuk who for my money is probably the best line combination I’ve seen on this team, this year.



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[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by Spinach

I don't know. He strikes me as someone who'd make a great president of hockey operations, because he's intelligent, thoughtful and handles internal matters as varied as the Bill Peters and Chris Snow situations with equanimity and poise.

Lately, Treliving seems gunshy about making a major move (disregarding Peters, because that decision was essentially made for him). I maintain that a big change was needed after the Colorado series, and he did nothing except add a couple of minor bits and traded one albatross contract for another, to his biggest rival no less.

As President of Hockey Ops, Tre could still have a hand in re-signing pending FA's, which is a strength of his, and still be the guiding voice of the club. Maybe a GM who'll not deal away first-rounders, make shrewd UFA acquisitions, will actually draft defencemen and right shots, and be willing to move a core piece is what's needed. Whether such an animal exists, I have no idea. I also don't like the idea of Treliving hiring his own replacement, so someone else would have to hire the new GM if Tre became President...

What I have realized is outside of Kevin Lowe, who is just an idiot, most GMs have nailed down the "gm speak". They all sound rational, with a patient strategy, all about the process and long term program.

We need to not fall in love with interviews and how smart a guy sounds, but rather grade the guy on their performance and results.. Treliving has been here for 7 years now. He entered the role in the thick of the rebuild.

He inherited Giordano, Brodie, monahan, gaudreau, backlund, ferland as the primary core.

In 7 years, I don't see much of an improvement on the core, aside from Lindholm.

He's not done much....

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Really? With hindsight I would have done that deal in a minute.

Look, I like how Tkachuk plays and competes....is he an 8M player though? He has 42 points and is -8

Is Tkachuk an 80 point player? What would his contact be if it was up this year not last?

[Psytic]

BT is the type of GM you get if you want to be the type of team that squeaks into the playoffs but makes very little noise. He isn't the guy to get you to the next level.

I'm not upset about Edmonton they have been rebuilding for 15 years they were due for some small amount of success with all those high picks. I am a little annoyed however that Vancouver was more successful the Naslund/Bertuzzi yrs, more successful the Sedin years, started their rebuild after the Flames and already look to be trending to be better again with more impact players all with Weisbrod in the background.

Small sample size for Van but that would really grind my gears if they make it back to contender status before the Flames again.