Flames Management Confidence - Trading

[Gaskal]

You'll have to pry the wizarding trade wand out of his cold, dead hands.

[Niemo]

The Lazar deal was horrible when it was made and that hasn't changed. The Bollig deal was crap as well. The Hamilton acquisition was very good, but giving up the same thing for a struggling Hamonic was an overpayment that we didn't need at the time. The 2nd Hamilton trade was fair. I'm slightly disappointed that we didnt get a 2nd or 3rd coming back our way, but it's a fair deal unless Hanifin resigns for a big number.

All in all, I think Treliving's trading is average. He wins some and loses some.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Niemo

T... The Hamilton acquisition was very good, but giving up the same thing for a struggling Hamonic was an overpayment that we didn't need at the time...

I really wish people would stop saying this. At the time of the Hamonic trade, the Flames had under contract Giordano, Brodie, and Hamilton, with Engelland, Wideman, and Stone pending UFA. I am quite certain that Treliving knew by this time that Engelland was signing with VGK, and he was also clearly (and rightly) reticent to go into the season with Stone on the second pairing, and Kulak and Bartkowski together on the third pair.

The Flames needed to upgrade their defense, and they did so by adding Hamonic. Yes, it was expensive, but it was absolutely needed.

[taxbuster]

4

Not in agreement with everything Tre does, but his trades have often been stunners. I like the moves this summer. (I had no great love for Dougie, whom I saw as somewhat lazy and unmotivated, so I think he did pretty well on that. The guys on NHL radio think he's a total stud. They're wrong.)

He seems to be able to gauge players in the trade market better than on the free agency one.

[Red Potato Standing By]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Traded Barzal or Connor and a couple of seconds for Hamilton.

Hopeful they got back to even getting Hanifin and Lindholm back.

Traded Noah Dobson and a couple of 2nds for Hamonic.

Traded a 2nd (#35 in 2016 (Jordan Kryou) and 3rd for Elliott


Flames 2018-19 roster players acquired by trade:

Lindhom, Hanifin, Hamonic, Lazar, Prout.


Stone is listed as a trade but he was a rental that they had to sign as a UFA.

Gave them a 2 but could easily be a 3.

How do you know that if Calgary would of kept the picks they traded for Hamilton they would of picked either of those players. Same goes for the first for Hamonic(which until Dobson proves himself it is moot for now anyways).

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I really wish people would stop saying this. At the time of the Hamonic trade, the Flames had under contract Giordano, Brodie, and Hamilton, with Engelland, Wideman, and Stone pending UFA. I am quite certain that Treliving knew by this time that Engelland was signing with VGK, and he was also clearly (and rightly) reticent to go into the season with Stone on the second pairing, and Kulak and Bartkowski together on the third pair.

The Flames needed to upgrade their defense, and they did so by adding Hamonic. Yes, it was expensive, but it was absolutely needed.

Niemo said the overpayment was not needed. Nowhere did the poster say the team didn’t need a defenseman so I think your anger is misplaced.

I agree with Niemo. Many teams go into the offseason with needs and that wasn’t the right time for the Flames to overpay.

The Brett Hull trad and the first Olli Jokinen trade were examples of the team “overpaying” at an opportune time IMO.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Niemo said the overpayment was not needed. Nowhere did the poster say the team didn’t need a defenseman so I think your anger is misplaced.

I agree with Niemo. Many teams go into the offseason with needs and that wasn’t the right time for the Flames to overpay.

The Brett Hull trad and the first Olli Jokinen trade were examples of the team “overpaying” at an opportune time IMO.

There was a competition for Hamonic. If, as you seem to say, he was needed, how is paying market price either an overpayment or unnecessary?

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

There was a competition for Hamonic. If, as you seem to say, he was needed, how is paying market price either an overpayment or unnecessary?

There was a competition for Brad Richards, there were a competition for Griffin Rienhardt, there was a competition for Erat do these teams get a pass because they paid "market" and it turned out one or two other teams were also incredibly wrong ? Does Edmonton set the "market"?

Brouwer was a "Market" value UFA.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

There was a competition for Brad Richards, there were a competition for Griffin Rienhardt, there was a competition for Erat do these teams get a pass because they paid "market" and it turned out one or two other teams were also incredibly wrong ? Does Edmonton set the "market"?

Brouwer was a "Market" value UFA.

All of those moves (except Griffin Reinhardt which was typical Edmonton and was in no way a competition) were proper moves unless the decline of the player was predicted- which it wasn’t. If Treliving had done nothing to address team deficiencies - that’s an error one can criticize. If he makes a move to correct deficiencies and the player underperforms his career averages, that’s just an unpredictable occurrence IMO.

[kehatch]

It's nice to have a GM that makes "bold moves" instead of one that talks about them.

[Vinny01]

I thought it would be tough for Treliving to top his summer of 2015 but he did it this year.

Coming off the surprising playoff run where he treated the deadline like we were rebuilding (Sven and Glencross for picks, waiver Dman pickup when we lost our top player). That team had magic and ends up going to round 2 despite Gio being hurt and being in year 2 of a rebuild. Many media, fans etc knew the Flames had a ton of luck that year and a drop off was highly likely. Wanting to reward the team and fans for that season while staying the course the Hamilton trade was perfect. The Flames landed a 22 year old top 4 Dman and licked him up to a solid 6 year deal. They then went to free agency and signed a 27 year old 2 way winger to a respectable deal. I thought both were perfect moves for the team at that time.

This summer with zero draft picks in the first 3 rounds and coming off a massively disappointing season Treliving trades Hamilton, Ferland (1 year from a payday) and Fox (3rd rounder whose stock shotnup and wasn’t going to sign) for a 21 year old Dman (5th overall pick in the draft he traded his first for Dougie) and Lindholm 23 year old right shot center winger who is also a 5th overall pick. Then adding Neal I’m free agency to address the need for scoring was huge. Czarnik and Ryan were both pursued by many teams but chose the Flames and they fit a need in the bottom 6.

[Sylvanfan]

For a team with 0 playoff wins in the last 3 year's the Flames have traded off a lot of good draft picks. The trades seem to look better on paper than they have on the ice.

Yes he does make bold moves but IIRC this recent deal with Hamilton and Ferland is the first deal with NHL players for NHL players as the primary parts. Still this was a team in a rebuild when Treliving took the reigns, and he's moved out a lot of picks to try and get better now with marginal success. If the 18-19 team does something on ice it will inspire a lot more confidence in me.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

For a team with 0 playoff wins in the last 3 year's the Flames have traded off a lot of good draft picks. The trades seem to look better on paper than they have on the ice.

Yes he does make bold moves but IIRC this recent deal with Hamilton and Ferland is the first deal with NHL players for NHL players as the primary parts. Still this was a team in a rebuild when Treliving took the reigns, and he's moved out a lot of picks to try and get better now with marginal success. If the 18-19 team does something on ice it will inspire a lot more confidence in me.

I don't think the plan was to miss the playoffs last year for sure, but I'm not sure how much those picks correlate with the success as much as the previous drafts.

The Flames graduated top draft pick forwards, and then bolstered the defense core cupboard in 2015. In 2016 they stayed the course and essentially hit it out of the park with Tkachuk, Parsons, Dube, and Fox.

The restocked.

Made sense to use picks to add to the now at that point in my mind.

Could have worked out better but I think the stocking timing was spot on.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

All of those moves (except Griffin Reinhardt which was typical Edmonton and was in no way a competition) were proper moves unless the decline of the player was predicted- which it wasn’t. If Treliving had done nothing to address team deficiencies - that’s an error one can criticize. If he makes a move to correct deficiencies and the player underperforms his career averages, that’s just an unpredictable occurrence IMO.

Hamonic was severely under-performing career averages. He was 2 years away from being a top-2 d-man. The "competition" for him was juiced up by him wanting to move to Western Canada team (Winnipeg, Edmonton, Calgary or maybe Vancouver/Minnesota). All these teams smelled blood in the water and wanted Hamonic for a 2nd round pick and a prospect as the Islanders were in a bad situation.

[dustygoon]

Originally Posted by kehatch

It's nice to have a GM that makes "bold moves" instead of one that talks about them.

I hear you, but the alternate can be good too if the GM can keep his nerve in the face of criticism and draft well. I think cheveldayov ha been solid for the Jets.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I don't think the plan was to miss the playoffs last year for sure, but I'm not sure how much those picks correlate with the success as much as the previous drafts.

I also don't think the plan was to miss the playoffs either. But you don't see many team's borrowing out that many high picks in the summer coming off a year where they won 0 playoff games. Teams will trade upcoming picks after the season is underway and they are a bit more certain as to where they could finish.

I don't believe that's the best way to build a longer term contender in the League with the way the rules and the cap work. Plus add in the disadvantages of being a smaller Canadian market. But that's belief more so than fact.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Hamonic was severely under-performing career averages. He was 2 years away from being a top-2 d-man. The "competition" for him was juiced up by him wanting to move to Western Canada team (Winnipeg, Edmonton, Calgary or maybe Vancouver/Minnesota). All these teams smelled blood in the water and wanted Hamonic for a 2nd round pick and a prospect as the Islanders were in a bad situation.

That’s not what other teams were offering. You are simply making things up now. It was fairly widely reported that the offers all involved first round picks plus.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

I also don't think the plan was to miss the playoffs either. But you don't see many team's borrowing out that many high picks in the summer coming off a year where they won 0 playoff games. Teams will trade upcoming picks after the season is underway and they are a bit more certain as to where they could finish.

I don't believe that's the best way to build a longer term contender in the League with the way the rules and the cap work. Plus add in the disadvantages of being a smaller Canadian market. But that's belief more so than fact.

I'm certainly not touting my view of it as a fact either.

I just wonder if you look at time periods with hit rates you push x number of players into a developmental curve in a three year period. Get two drafts with a higher hit rate and suddenly you need to consider the depth as almost a problem if you get too many bodies arriving at the same time.

Makes moving picks easier because you moved players for picks in '14 and '15, added Hamilton, and then hit it on back to back drafts.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Hamonic was severely under-performing career averages. He was 2 years away from being a top-2 d-man. The "competition" for him was juiced up by him wanting to move to Western Canada team (Winnipeg, Edmonton, Calgary or maybe Vancouver/Minnesota). All these teams smelled blood in the water and wanted Hamonic for a 2nd round pick and a prospect as the Islanders were in a bad situation.

Leafs article with tweets

Lists 5 teams in "hard" on Hamonic.

It was a competition no matter what you want to believe. Almost went to Toronto for JVR and a 1st

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by browna

As far as in season trades, the way the season went, when was that timing? In hindsight, maybe just before Christmas after dominating games but the coaching staff not getting that extra out of players to finish the job.

With the edict to GG and stick throw, January was a roller coaster up and down. Next window may have been Feb, but by that point it was clear to BT that GG lost the room and was probably gone, and it was a longer shot for Flames to make the playoffs (and with the situation in Carolina changing, BT knew that Peters was likely coming on board). Then Smith got hurt and he well could’ve given up something for a backup at trade deadline but didn’t.

And the Hamilton deal was fantastic. If BT gave up any assets to get some decent help in net or bottom 4 last year, chance is it may well have been Fox as any sort of sweetener, and then this trade doesn’t go through.

They needed to either fire GG or bring in a scoring talent after it was clear jagr wasn't going to work out and the team was likely to miss the playoff after moving their 1st rounder.