Wedded to a Welfare State

[transplant99]

Having relations with China, Cuba, and Iran is evil and wrong

I dont know if its evil and wrong, but any country getting in bed with these countries better be careful, otherwise you get accused of supporting the bad guys later on.

See Saddam Hussein, Osama Bin Laden, The Saudi Royals, etc etc etc.

Cant have it both ways.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by transplant99@Oct 6 2005, 06:47 PM

I dont know if its evil and wrong, but any country getting in bed with these countries better be careful, otherwise you get accused of supporting the bad guys later on.

See Saddam Hussein, Osama Bin Laden, The Saudi Royals, etc etc etc.

Cant have it both ways.

So, your advice to Germany would be steer clear of these states, and focus more on trading with the US? What would be 'having it both ways', what Germany is doing now? Maintaining good relations with the Chinese and Americans at the same time?

Why? Are these states bad or wrong? Is it 'morally better' to deal with the US than China? And if it is, then why does the US trade so heavily with China? Can't it get it's plastic knick-knacks elsewhere?

[transplant99]

So, your advice to Germany would be steer clear of these states, and focus more on trading with the US?

Yeah, that's what I said.

Im pointing out the real FACT that bleeding heart Liberals, when Bush ended up fighting Bin Laden and crew, were the first ones to point out that "hey, it's the US that supplied him with money through trade and weapons sales, its the US fault for everything including Hussein, Saudis, the Turkish gov't etc"...yet here you are suggesting its just fine for the socialist German country to do the EXACT same thing with KNOWN human rights abusers. I guess because they are socialists.

Thats the "both ways" argument, and there simply is no retort to it.

[CaramonLS]

Originally posted by Agamemnon@Oct 6 2005, 06:52 PM
Why? Are these states bad or wrong? Is it 'morally better' to deal with the US than China? And if it is, then why does the US trade so heavily with China? Can't it get it's plastic knick-knacks elsewhere?

Aga is totally right here. Have you even seen the US-China Trade deficit? Or how many billions the US/China trade with eachother?

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by transplant99@Oct 6 2005, 06:57 PM

Yeah, that's what I said.

Im pointing out the real FACT that bleeding heart Liberals, when Bush ended up fighting Bin Laden and crew, were the first ones to point out that "hey, it's the US that supplied him with money through trade and weapons sales, its the US fault for everything including Hussein, Saudis, the Turkish gov't etc"...yet here you are suggesting its just fine for the socialist German country to do the EXACT same thing with KNOWN human rights abusers. I guess because they are socialists.

Thats the "both ways" argument, and there simply is no retort to it.

Sooo... Germany deals with China, they're trying to have it 'both ways'. The US deals with China (in a HUGE way), and they're immune to criticism? Isn't this a double-standard?

What exactly is 'socialist Germany' being accused of here?

Trading with Cuba, Iran, and China today is akin to dealing with 1980's Afghanistan and Iraq?

[transplant99]

Trading with Cuba, Iran, and China today is akin to dealing with 1980's Afghanistan and Iraq

Possibly...who knows?

It's just like when the US supported Hussein in his battles with Iran, and when they supported Bin Laden in his war against the Soviets.

Who knew what would happen 20 years later? Yet, again, the leftists in this country lambaste the US for doing exactly that.

All I said, if you want to read it again, is that when dealing with any of those countries, they better be careful...no more and no less.

It's a double standard to suggest otherwise, and yes that criticism is just as valid against the US as any other country doing business with these nations.

[tjinaz]

First of all .... the discussion is not about racism but how the US integrates imigrants into their society. Basically that in the US the imigrants get jobs and live among other citizens not go on social support and live in government supplied housing. The US leans more towards inclusion than exclusion. After all at one point everone in the US was an immigrant. (even the Native Americans came over from Asia)

The other important factor is that the bulk of the immigrants to the US are from the south and they already have a BIG presence in the US. If you follow the News the French and German governments admit to having problems with integration.

US http://usinfo.state.gov/eur/Archive/...07-600416.html

Europe http://service.spiegel.de/cache/internatio...,333899,00.html
http://fpc.org.uk/articles/324

I see your point about the hypocrisy. You are correct. I cannot base the argument solely on my personal situation.

But then again you can't say Tucson has a race problem based on one incident. You will very rarely see race issues in Arizona.

Following your logic I guess Toronto has a Big problem with Bullies and maintaining order in it's schools. All Toronto schools are plagued with bullies.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2005/09...1236582-cp.html

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by transplant99@Oct 6 2005, 01:07 PM

Possibly...who knows?

It's just like when the US supported Hussein in his battles with Iran, and when they supported Bin Laden in his war against the Soviets.

Who knew what would happen 20 years later? Yet, again, the leftists in this country lambaste the US for doing exactly that.

All I said, if you want to read it again, is that when dealing with any of those countries, they better be careful...no more and no less.

It's a double standard to suggest otherwise, and yes that criticism is just as valid against the US as any other country doing business with these nations.

Sheesh. Talk about having low expectations for your government. I wish someone would give me such leeway.

"Yes Officer, I was driving 170 through the school zone, but who knew that children would be on the road? They weren't there last night and I was going even faster"!

"Good point. You are free to go".

I suppose though that the Bush government should be given some leeway. Nobody in that administration had anything to do with the Saudis, bin Laden, Saddam et al. I think they were still in Government School.

[Agamemnon]

Following your logic I guess Toronto has a Big problem with Bullies and maintaining order in it's schools. All Toronto schools are plagued with bullies.

Not really. I haven't made any claims about Toronto and bullies. If I said 'Toronto has no bullies, because I've never seen them', that would be akin to your position re: Phoenix/racism.

Nor is my point that 'one story = the total truth'

All I was doing was responding to your statement,

There is violence due to crime but not because of race.

Which my one, lonely source seems to nullify. My point is not to say Phoenix is a cesspool of racist hate. But it does exist, and violence is caused as a result (in this case, one large incidence of violence). You said it didn't, I'm saying it does.

[tjinaz]

I stand corrected.

My mistake, keep wording my responses in absolute terms.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by tjinaz@Oct 6 2005, 09:25 PM
I stand corrected.

My mistake, keep wording my responses in absolute terms.

I'm just using the alt-q function. Maybe you shouldn't speak in absolute terms if you don't mean to, it might save us both some time.

[transplant99]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos@Oct 6 2005, 04:38 PM
Sheesh. Talk about having low expectations for your government. I wish someone would give me such leeway.

"Yes Officer, I was driving 170 through the school zone, but who knew that children would be on the road? They weren't there last night and I was going even faster"!

"Good point. You are free to go".

I suppose though that the Bush government should be given some leeway. Nobody in that administration had anything to do with the Saudis, bin Laden, Saddam et al. I think they were still in Government School.

Ya know Rouge...you used to have at least SOME intelligent, and quite frankly, responses/debates that i respected and actually thought about.

Lately?

Know idea what is going on.

Read what I said, (all through this thread) and explain WTF you are talking about. You make less sense than Chretian on a drunk roll talking about "proof is proof".

Quite sad IMO.

Please, go back through what has been said by myself, and others, and explain how anything you have said....is an analogy/makes any sense...at all!!

BTW...Im used to low expectations for "my" governments...the Liberals in Canada set the bar after all.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by transplant99@Oct 6 2005, 06:27 PM
Ya know Rouge...you used to have at least SOME intelligent, and quite frankly, responses/debates that i respected and actually thought about.

Lately?

Know idea what is going on.

Read what I said, (all through this thread) and explain WTF you are talking about. You make less sense than Chretian on a drunk roll talking about "proof is proof".

Quite sad IMO.

Please, go back through what has been said by myself, and others, and explain how anything you have said....is an analogy/makes any sense...at all!!

BTW...Im used to low expectations for "my" governments...the Liberals in Canada set the bar after all.

Laugh. I see your flair for the melodramatic is still intact.

Thanks for the pity, but if you are going to call someone stupid you might want to do just a quick edit of your post.

Anyhow, it's easy to figure out. You lament the fact that us "bleeding hearts" complain about the US having supported these terrorists and crazies and then say "the liberals complain about it, but who knew what was going to happen"?

My little analogy of the guy driving his car too fast is the same thing. Sure he was going fast, but you can't blame him for something bad happening, because he didn't know. Right?

To make a short and simple story really easy to understand... you can't just let them off the hook with the excuse of "they didn't know what was going to happen".

Well, I can't. I guess you can if you want.

[transplant99]

To make a short and simple story really easy to understand... you can't just let them off the hook with the excuse of "they didn't know what was going to happen".

Well, I can't. I guess you can if you want.

First off...didnt call you stupid...but way to drag that into things.

Secondly....im NOT making excuses for anyone by saying "they didn't know what was going to happen"....thats pretty apparent.

What i am saying, and follow the bouncing ball here. is this...

(And getting back to the topic at hand, something else you have had no problem completely ignoring as well)

IF Germany, the USA, Canada, hell even Timbukgoddamntoo are willing to engage with in trade with countries like CHINA, IRAN And CUBA, (as the US gets lambasted all the time for doing so in the past) then they best "BE VERY CAREFULL" if they dont want to, in 20 years, be accused of causing the problem themselves.

Again, something you bleeding heart liberals have done in the last 2 years to the very administration in place, even though these guys arent the ones who did the deals with those you so vehemtly want to point at.

Do you even understand what im saying?

Where, oh where, did I ever say it was OK what they did, because ""they didn't know what was going to happen".


I didnt...anywhere.

But as the best of the left has quite apparently taught you.....who cares what was actually said, lets fudge it all up and say they said something they didnt!!

"The wheels on the left go spin spin spin, spin spin spin, spin spin spin"........

[TheCommodoreAfro]

Originally posted by transplant99@Oct 7 2005, 04:07 AM

Possibly...who knows?

It's just like when the US supported Hussein in his battles with Iran, and when they supported Bin Laden in his war against the Soviets.

Who knew what would happen 20 years later? Yet, again, the leftists in this country lambaste the US for doing exactly that.

All I said, if you want to read it again, is that when dealing with any of those countries, they better be careful...no more and no less.

It's a double standard to suggest otherwise, and yes that criticism is just as valid against the US as any other country doing business with these nations.

The difference is in how people are dealing with these countries in trade versus how the US was supporting these regimes militarily, and for simple personal gain. Trade is simply and exchange of products, someone makes something - other person pays, sometimes when a deal is closed they have a party together. Not quite on the same level as cultural exchange, but the benefit is largely mutual, so relationships don't suffer.

I think the point here is that militaristic and trade relationships have to be seperated when considering the point.

[TheCommodoreAfro]

Originally posted by transplant99@Oct 7 2005, 12:12 PM

First off...didnt call you stupid...but way to drag that into things.

Secondly....im NOT making excuses for anyone by saying "they didn't know what was going to happen"....thats pretty apparent.

What i am saying, and follow the bouncing ball here. is this...

(And getting back to the topic at hand, something else you have had no problem completely ignoring as well)

IF Germany, the USA, Canada, hell even Timbukgoddamntoo are willing to engage with in trade with countries like CHINA, IRAN And CUBA, (as the US gets lambasted all the time for doing so in the past) then they best "BE VERY CAREFULL" if they dont want to, in 20 years, be accused of causing the problem themselves.

Again, something you bleeding heart liberals have done in the last 2 years to the very administration in place, even though these guys arent the ones who did the deals with those you so vehemtly want to point at.

Do you even understand what im saying?

Where, oh where, did I ever say it was OK what they did, because ""they didn't know what was going to happen".


I didnt...anywhere.

But as the best of the left has quite apparently taught you.....who cares what was actually said, lets fudge it all up and say they said something they didnt!!

"The wheels on the left go spin spin spin, spin spin spin, spin spin spin"........

BTW, what's happening in Iraq today is directly related to the US decision to invade in 2003. I don't see how you can say otherwise.

As for the rise of uneducated, unthinking, but bloody well trained anti-US terrorists I'm all for getting rid of them, but I think how you and I would go about doing it are different.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by transplant99@Oct 6 2005, 09:12 PM

First off...didnt call you stupid...but way to drag that into things.

Secondly....im NOT making excuses for anyone by saying "they didn't know what was going to happen"....thats pretty apparent.

What i am saying, and follow the bouncing ball here. is this...

(And getting back to the topic at hand, something else you have had no problem completely ignoring as well)

IF Germany, the USA, Canada, hell even Timbukgoddamntoo are willing to engage with in trade with countries like CHINA, IRAN And CUBA, (as the US gets lambasted all the time for doing so in the past) then they best "BE VERY CAREFULL" if they dont want to, in 20 years, be accused of causing the problem themselves.

Again, something you bleeding heart liberals have done in the last 2 years to the very administration in place, even though these guys arent the ones who did the deals with those you so vehemtly want to point at.

Do you even understand what im saying?

Where, oh where, did I ever say it was OK what they did, because ""they didn't know what was going to happen".


I didnt...anywhere.

But as the best of the left has quite apparently taught you.....who cares what was actually said, lets fudge it all up and say they said something they didnt!!

"The wheels on the left go spin spin spin, spin spin spin, spin spin spin"........

When someone tells me I used to be occasionally intelligent or at least coherent but I'm neither intelligent or coherent now, it sounds to me like you are saying I am neither intelligent or coherent now. In other words, stupid.

How would you take it?

Anyway, you redneck crackers (since we're using nice insults like "bleeding heart" I might as well get in on the fun!) know full well that it wasn't Rumsfeld's stunt-double shaking Saddamn's hand, Cheney was working for Reagan and George's dad, Wolfowitz wasn't exactly washing windows for a living and Richard Perle was the assistant secretary of defense for Reagan. So, if you want to say the current boys had nothing to do with that old "kiss Saddam's ass" crowd then you are simply wrong.

In the end though, I suppose if your point is that everyone should be careful dealing with China, Iran, Cuba then I guess you got me there. Can't argue that. The sky is blue as well. Water is wet.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally posted by Agamemnon@Oct 6 2005, 03:15 PM
2 things.

1.# If you read above, you'll see that the 'picture' being painted about Germany by many economists is mixed, not gloomy.# They are the largest exporter in the world.
2.# 'Socialism = Evil' is not a 'fact', you can not bring up the fact that Germany isn't a hard-right-wing state and call it an automatic negative.# Not before proving "Socialism = Evil", and your track record of pro-Anarcho/Capitalism (Utopianism) here is well documented, if totally unsuccessful.

Yeah, two things. First, it doesn’t matter how many pictures of Germany are being painted. What matters is – which one is correct? You tell me how 30 per cent and still rising unemployment rate (in some parts of eastern states) is not a gloomy picture of German economy. Germany might be the largest exporter in the world right now, but with the way things are going, it won’t last for long. You may want to take notes of all those companies shifting their production to East. Prime examples are the car manufacturers. They are closing down factories in Germany, and opening new ones in different countries. You tell me how is Germany going to remain the largest exporter in the world when things are going this way?

And second, what is up with this obsession of yours, where you bring my alleged "utopianism" into every single discussion? It has got nothing to do with the topic at hand.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally posted by longsuffering@Oct 6 2005, 05:45 PM
You've got to be kidding. Outrageous even for FOL

Dude, seriously, do you even pay attention to what is going on in the world? EU/Germany warming up relationships with Cuba and ignoring Cuban dissidents, German businessmen lined up behind Schroders back during his numerous business trips to China, EU/German politicians hugging Iranian mullahs, patting them on their back saying "Sure, we believe you that your nuclear program is for peace purposes, maybe you want to buy some technology from us?"

[transplant99]

When someone tells me I used to be occasionally intelligent or at least coherent but I'm neither intelligent or coherent now, it sounds to me like you are saying I am neither intelligent or coherent now. In other words, stupid.

How would you take it?

If I answered to something that wasn't being said, I would expect to have it pointed out to me.

My apologies however, as it did come across that way.

Anyway, you redneck crackers (since we're using nice insults like "bleeding heart" I might as well get in on the fun!)

Ahhh..I didnt know bleeding heart was an insult. Since its broadly defined as meaning sympathetic. While a redneck is quite literally an analogy for bigot and cracker is used to describe a poor white person. Yeah i guess that's the same thing.


Im done with this...its apparent that my point has been lost on you, or you choose to ignore it.