Lazar vs 2nd round pick

[wireframe]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

I personally think it is a decent gamble. There is a lot to Lazar's game that is good, but he just hasn't been able to put it together. All that missing time and being rushed into the NHL hasn't helped matters. Maybe he figures it out, and maybe he doesn't. He does show flashes, and hopefully those flashes can start becoming more regular.

It is too soon to call that trade good or bad just yet, but I do think the gamble was a good one to take at the time.

I completely agree.

Trelivings job is all about taking calculated risks. It's unfair to judge these moves on an individual basis. If he is accurately assessing the risks then the team will get better in aggregate over time. If he is not, the team will get worse.

I think that, given the information the Flames had at the time, trading Lazar for a 2nd was a good risk to take with potential for a high reward.

[JohnnyTitan]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Does a second round pick have waiver-exempt status through to 2022? Yes.
Does Curtis Lazar? No.

This is a really awesome point that I think usually gets swept under the carpet. Team control is crucial in the cap era.

However I think the point works against this argument. Based on our team's composition and our core it was decided NOW was the time to compete. This was further driven home by the Hamonic trade. So the Flames didn't need an asset in 2022. They needed a good bottom sixer NOW.

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[Geeoff]

I think it was a calculated gamble that didn't work out.

[ricardodw]

What is the value of any draft pick? Depends who you take with that pick.

Flames traded #15 overall Zachary Senyshyn for Hamilton. Great for the Flames.

If the Bruins would have picked Brazal, Connor, or Boeser who were 16, 17 and 23 that draft not so much.

Pretty sure that the CP posters would have blown up if the Flames passed on Brazal at #15.

As to the Flames doing so well with 2nd round picks??? That is like winning the SOG battle. out of the last 7 Flames 2nd round picks they have a combined 4 NHL games.

You have to go back to 2011 #45 overall Marcus Granlund to get a NHL player better than Lazar.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

I know he doesn't look like a good player now, but I'm surprised at the trashing BT is getting over this.

Really? I don't know how you can be surprised... he burned a highly portable asset on a guy who had terrible production stats and equally bad possession stats and who has continued to be bad since. Lot's of people saw this as a bad move at the time and Treliving should have been able to see it as well.

Brad Treliving is not a bad GM, but he's also not so good that he gets a free pass on blunders.

[Gaskal]

It was another "win now" move.

After getting success from his 2nds recently, Treliving wanted to use the 2nd on someone still young with upside who can help the team right away and not in 3 years, when the defencemen contracts are coming up and he has to retool. Lazar turns the puck into a hand grenade whenever it hits his tape, however, and is not helping this team very much.

Heck, it's even a waste of a roster spot. Lazar was supposed to come into camp guns blazing and earn a spot on Bennett's line. He did not, and we signed Jagr instead while he continues to grow more stale as a 13th forward.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Gaskal

It was another "win now" move.

After getting success from his 2nds recently, Treliving wanted to use the 2nd on someone still young with upside who can help the team right away and not in 3 years, when the defencemen contracts are coming up and he has to retool. Lazar turns the puck into a hand grenade whenever it hits his tape, however, and is not helping this team very much.

Heck, it's even a waste of a roster spot. Lazar was supposed to come into camp guns blazing and earn a spot on Bennett's line. He did not, and we signed Jagr instead while he continues to grow more stale as a 13th forward.

Exactly.

A second round pick - if it pays dividends at all - doesn't usuall pay off for 4 to 5 years.

With the trade, Treliving upped the timeline substantially, and got a player that could blossom within a year or so. Which fit the timeline of the team better.

So far, it hasn't worked out. But it was a very sensible trade. And for those that say they have never seen anything in his game, did you watch him in junior? The kid can play. And he has both wheels, and grit. His confidence is completely shot, and it isn't easy to get it back when you play every third game, but for me, the trade was a great bet.

And, as with Bennett, it is far too early to fold the hand.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by New Era

Based on Lazar's performance, I'd rather have the box - you can keep the mystery. The empty box holds more value to me than Curtis Lazar.

Yeah, that was pretty poor use of that meme.

[jlh2640]

I pick Lazar

[Young_Guns]

Originally Posted by theinfinitejar

Lazar would have been waived already if we didn't spend a second on him.

Total whiff.

This. I hope the guy pans out, and although he still has some time, I don't think he is going to turn into anything more than what he already is. A 4th line tweener. Great personality though, reminds me of Conroy.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by joejoe3

Brad treliving is a good GM

I agree. Not everyone can build a top 22 team in the NHL and keep some of their first, second or third round picks.

People should quit bellyaching and start appreciating the fact that

1) we are still playing meaningful games
2) after the Habs lose tonight we are still 3 points up on the Oilers with some games left against the Oilers
3) we can put more time into scouting the 2020 draft class, which will pay off in spades.

In BT we trust

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

I agree. Not everyone can build a top 22 team in the NHL and keep some of their first, second or third round picks.

OK, you want Treliving fired. Who do you replace him with?

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

I agree. Not everyone can build a top 22 team in the NHL and keep some of their first, second or third round picks.

People should quit bellyaching and start appreciating the fact that

1) we are still playing meaningful games
2) after the Habs lose tonight we are still 3 points up on the Oilers with some games left against the Oilers
3) we can put more time into scouting the 2020 draft class, which will pay off in spades.

In BT we trust

I seriously don't know if you are being sarcastic in this post.

[Machiavelli]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

I seriously don't know if you are being sarcastic in this post.

dripping in sarcasm

[united]

Knowing what I did about Lazar at the time, I thought it was a horrible gamble to make at that price. Knowing what I do about Lazar now, the deal somehow looks even worse. Big miss by Treliving/Cameron on that one.
Trading a second-round pick for a fourth liner is a poor choice...that second-round pick probably doesn't turn into something, but at least there is the chance. With Lazar, you knew his ceiling was third liner with probable development of fourth liner. Now, a fifth or later pick would have been okay.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by Kipper_3434

I sincerely believe that Lazaar is better than we've seen. And he's not the problem with the 4th line at all. Remember when Bennett had 0 points with subpar linemates? Now Lazaar gets to play with those bums.

There is something to this.

I feel the 1st line hasn't been that effective of late because of Ferland inability to cycle and possess the puck well when he's defended. If that line doesn't heat up like the team needs it too, may be worth a shot to switch Ferland and Lazar and see if that can ignite some spark.

Granted, this is when Jagr isn't playing, which will probably be majority of the games. If Lazar produces, then it'll at least force either of Brouwer or Stajan to be scratches.

[Flamescuprun2018]

35 points in first two NHL seasons is nothing to sneeze at for a 19-20 yr old at the time.

GM G A Pts
143 12 23 35

Then Mono season. Now confidence low. Just need to look at Bennett to see what that does.

Had to go back to WJC to get a better glimpse at what a confident Lazar can do. Lazar was captain of that gold medal winning team and was key on the powerplay with McDavid.

Interesting that McDavid and Lazar were a one-two punch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhLc2gh-c90

GM G A Pts
2014 Canada WJC 4th 7 3 4 7
2015 Canada WJC 1st 7 5 4 9

Hathaway is doing on 3rd line what Lazar should be doing. The difference is mostly confidence.

Interesting how bad timing (Mono early in 3rd season when waiver exemption lost (160th NHL game)) can hinder a player's development to recapture confidence by removing the AHL waiver exempt option.

Exemption Determination for Curtis Lazar
Source: https://www.capfriendly.com/waivers_.../curtis-lazar?

Waivers signing age: 18
Position: skater
11 GP in first season: No
11 GP in second season: Yes
Years Exempt: 4
NHL Games Played Exempt: 160

At some point he may be able to pass waivers. A half year in the AHL could be the solution.

Ahead of Poirier, Shinkaruk, and Klimchuk in same draft year and they have the benefit of first and second line minutes still in AHL.

[BigRed]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

Given what we've done with 2nd round picks in recent years, this has been the worst return of the lot.

Hunter Smith says hi.


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[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

OK, you want Treliving fired. Who do you replace him with?

Anyone who can hire a decent head coach.

I do give him credit, he turned 2 firsts and 4 seconds into 2 decent players. Not everyone can do that. That being said, the Flames will have a real dry pool of prospects in 2021, barring a festivus miracle.

[Flamescuprun2018]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Anyone who can hire a decent head coach.

I do give him credit, he turned 2 firsts and 4 seconds into 2 decent players. Not everyone can do that. That being said, the Flames will have a real dry pool of prospects in 2021, barring a festivus miracle.

I suspect our prospect pool will be at least average in 2021. BT is pretty shrewd about asset management (Byron aside). He has several current roster pieces he can move for picks in his two areas of current prospect strength D and G. Even our Stockton forwards are beginning to emerge which may also yield picks in 2020-21 timeframe.

One real positive from this season is our player development program. Stockton team is playing great with a very youthful squad and those prospects that have made the jump to big club this year have transitioned very well.

At least two perhaps 3 of the top 5 D will be moved within 3 year before their contracts end which will yield several high picks. We are also likely to move one of our goalie prospects as we have three good ones.

I dont see us giving up 2020 draft picks either unless we have to find a 1RW.

Expecting a bumper crop of draft picks in 2020, 2021 timeframe while we are still in the tail end of the Gaudreau era contender window for a quick retool. That all depends on whether BT is still here of course which worries me most as a BT fan.