What was the worst trade in Flames history?

[FireGilbert]

Another few bad trades I don't think have been mentioned yet:

-Tanguay and Sarich for Jones and O'Brien.
-Lydman for a 3rd rounder
-Clark for a 6th rounder
-3rd rounder for Grant Fuhr
-Nylander for Nazarov
-Matteau for Yawney

Originally Posted by Mister Yamoto

Button never gets the credit he deserves for the 04 run. 03 was the Flames best trade deadline ever IMO. He would still be a GM today if only he was able to pick goalies ..............or coaches.

I had to look up the 2003 traded deadline. McAmmond, Commodore, Donovan and Ference for not much definitely helped turn around the Flames fortunes. It still doesn't make up for Savard though.

[1991 Canadian]

The Gilmour trade is probably the worst, but damn that Savard trade is awful.

Even when I try and take hindsight out of the equation, it was an awful awful trade. It almost seems like the GM wanted to make a personal “you’re only worth a D-grade prospect” statement.

At the time of the trade, Savard was a 2nd line centre who had produced at the NHL level. He had 154 points in 221 games with the Flames. As an undersized centre, on some below average Flames teams, in an era when points were hard to come by, I find this pretty damn impressive. I get that he had defensive/conditioning issues, but he was a productive NHL player in the prime of his career.

Zainullin was an early 2nd draft pick in 2000, who regressed in the 2 years after he was drafted. He won gold with the Russian WJC team in 2002, netting an impressive 1 assist all tournament. He had 7 points in 70 games the three years in the Russian Superleague leading up to the trade. I normally don’t take too much stock in a teenagers numbers in a mens league, but still, there was almost no evidence of progression. He had 2 points, then 3 points, then 2 points. The only thing I see going for him at the time was his size. How could any fan possibly get excited about him? By this point, the Flames were the 4th and ultimately final team to own his NHL rights. He would likely be ranked around 30th if 20 year old Zainullin was thrown into this years prospect ranking.

In hindsight, this trade looks even worse. Credit to Zainullin for scraping out a solid career in Russia, but he was never close to being an NHL player. Savard went on to become a productive first line player, all-star and Stanley Cup winner.

I get that there are extenuating circumstances to some of these trades that lower their value, but yikes, some of them are just awful.

[TheScorpion]

One that hasn't been mentioned: Brendan Morrison for Brian Connelly

[Calgary4LIfe]

For me, it was Gilmour. Not by a hair, but by far.

There are so many different ways of looking at that trade and analyzing it. It was horrific from the outset. Overnight it ended any hope of a Stanley Cup repeat in Calgary, and it singlehandedly turned Toronto, the laughing stock of the NHL, into a competitive team.

Out:
Doug Gilmour
Jamie Macoun
Ric Nattress
Rick Walmsley
Kent Manderville

In:
Gary Leeman
Michel Petit
Jeff Reese
Craig Berube
Alexander Godynyuk

That is awful. There is so many ways to look at this trade - statistically, lasting impact, future trade spin-offs, etc. This trade KILLED Calgary. It seemed to rip the heart out of the Flames. People refer to trading away Ference that year by Sutter as a huge mistake for this reason. Now, imagine if Ference was 10x the player that he was, and he got traded for scrubs.

The good:
Jeff Reese WAS an upgrade on Walmsley at the time. I hate to admit it as I rather liked Walmsley, but he was at the tail end of his career (he played 13 professional games after that trade, including 2 in the AHL). Reese provided Calgary with 1.5 seasons of decent backup duty (yes, sadly, this was the biggest 'win' out of the trade).

Berube I liked as well in Calgary. He was good at his role I thought (enforcer). However, Flames had Hunter, Stern, Sheehy, Roberts, Otto, and even Kyte (sigh). Flames still had a lot of grit after that. It wasn't like Berube was some kind of a need like one might argue for today's version of Calgary. That was still one of the NHL's toughest teams that didn't take any crap from anyone. Berube definitely added to that - and I did like him - but when I am listing an almost pure enforcer as a 'positive' you know I am reaching.

Godynyuk and Petit. They both sucked. Both combined couldn't come close to providing what Macoun did for the Flames (he was Regehr). Both of those defencemen played only 2 and 3 years respectively for Calgary, while Macoun gave Toronto 7 years. 7 good years, actually. That alone was a big loss.

Ric Nattress was already fairly broken-down by that point, thanks to him being such a warrior for the Flames and a recipient of some cheap-ass shenanigans from the Oilers. However, I argue that he was one of the leaders on the Flames, though I wouldn't go so far as to say he was an important piece of that trade.

To add insult to injury, the Flames were the team that also gave up futures in that deal. Kent Manderville was a fairly well-thought of prospect who had yet to play an NHL game. Did well in the NCAA, went on to play well on the Canadian National team, and was somehow included in that trade. He went on to disappoint in his career given expectations, but at that time it was just another slap in the face, while being kicked in the junk.

There was NOTHING in that deal that brought back a long-term piece, or a piece that did well for a single season, or a piece that returned something else remotely good in a future trade. There was NOTHING good about it.

I will argue that if Calgary had traded Jamie Macoun alone for that package, the Flames would probably lose that trade.

There was 'hope' that Leeman could return to form, but just watching him play told you that there was no way he would ever come close to being a 50 goal scorer again. Even on a still relatively stacked team in Calgary boasting Roberts, Nieuwendyk, Fleury, Makarov, Reichel - he failed to turn his game around at all. Over the course of 2 seasons, Leeman played 59 games and recorded 23 points. Fun fact - Doug Gilmour never once recorded 23 or less points in a single season until he retired, 11 years later. In fact, the very next full season in Toronto, Gilmour managed to score 104 points more than Leeman did in his two seasons in Calgary. In fact, he also scored 35 points in that post-season alone.

Let's look at it all combined in an unrefined but purely 'by the numbers' way.

The players that Calgary gave up:

Number of seasons: Gilmour = 11, Macoun = 8, Walmsley = 2 , Nattress = 1, Manderville = 12
Total: 34 seasons worth

Players coming in: Leeman = 5, Reese = 6, Berube = 11, Petit = 6, Godynyuk = 5
Total: 32 seasons worth

It was close, but then you look at how many seasons the players played with the organization right after the trade, ignoring other teams (and ignoring the season they were traded for one another, as it was a wash):

Gilmour = 5 (didn't count Gilmour's 1 game's worth at the end of his career), Macoun = 6, Nattress = 1, Walmsley = 1, Manderville = 3
Total 16 seasons

Leeman = 2, Godynyuk = 1, Petit = 2, Reese = 2, Berube = 1 (though came back at the end of his career for 2 seasons which I didn't count).
Total 8 seasons

Let's look at the point production:

Gilmour Goals total = 220, Goals for the Leafs =131, Assists total = 545, Assists for the Leafs = 321,
Points for the leafs = 452
Total Points = 765

Macoun Goals total = 14, Goals for Leafs =13 , Assists Total = 98, Assists for Leafs =88, Points Total =112, Points for Leafs = 101

Nattress Goals total = 9, Goals for Leafs = 2, Assists Total = 24, Assists for Leafs =14, Points Total 33=, Points for Leafs = 16

Manderville Goals total = 37, Goals for Leafs = 8, Assists Total = 67, Assists for Leafs = 11, Points Total = 104, Points for Leafs = 19

Incoming:

Leeman Goals total = 23, Goals for Flames = 11, Assists Total = 36, Assists for Flames = 12, Points Total = 59, Points for Flames = 23

Berube Goals total = 40, Goals for Flames = 5, Assists Total = 105, Assists for Flames =12, Points Total = 145, Points for Flames = 17

Godynyuk Goals total = 9, Goals for Flames = 3, Assists Total = 30, Assists for Flames =5, Points Total = 39, Points for Flames =8

Petit Goals total =23 , Goals for Flames =8 , Assists Total = 74, Assists for Flames =40, Points Total =97, Points for Flames =48

So, let's add them up.

Out of Calgary:
Total goals: 280
Total goals for Leafs: 154
Total assists: 734
Total assists for Leafs: 434
Total Points: 1014
Total points for Leafs: 588

Into Calgary:
Total goals: 95
Total goals for Flames: 27
Total assists: 245
Total assists for Flames: 69
Total Points: 340
Total points for Flames: 96

I am not going to bother with the playoff numbers (hint: Gilmour was amazing in them for the Leafs).

With these numbers, we can statistically see by how much the Flames lost this trade by. It isn't an exact science, as teams will sometimes trade offence for defence, and these numbers will not capture that. Let's look at them anyway.

Flames lost value in player's career (to determine asset worth in future trades) by:

Goals: 185
Assists: 489
Points: 674

Flames reduced their offence directly from this trade by:
Goals: 127
Assists: 365
Points: 492

The Flames traded 492 points in order to marginally improve their backup goaltender and add a bit more of toughness (that they already had in spades).

They didn't shore-up their defence - Gilmour was great defensively and Macoun was really Regehr back then.

They didn't shore-up leadership - Gilmour and Macoun were both leaders.

That is what the Flames traded folks. That is why that trade is simply the worst ever. There are many more ways to analyze and look at this trade, but by reading some of the comments here, I thought I would take the time to properly show how bad this was.

Calgary traded away 492 immediate points (the points that players attained on their immediate teams post-trade) to slightly improve backup goaltending and add toughness (on a team with Hunter, Stern, Otto, Roberts, Kyte). They also traded away leadership. Traded away 2 members from their 'core'. Also traded away a top prospect.

For a better backup giving them 17 wins in 3 seasons, and a player I liked (but didn't add much overall) who chucked knuckles well.

It is the worst trade in Flames' history. Phaneuf was a bad trade, but does it really compare?

Savard was a terrible trade, but at least you look at it in that the Flames were shipping out a 'malcontent' who didn't get along with the coach (who they then fired anyways, but that is beside the point).

This trade would have been downright awful if it was just Gilmour for Leeman. Gilmour was the malcontent, but why did it get enlarged? Flames missed Gilmour greatly, but they also missed Macoun. They also traded a top prospect too (who didn't go on to meet expectations, but the initial value of the entire thing stunk).

No other trade came close to this in sheer putridness. The entire city was moaning the sheer stench of this trade for years. Every year Gilmour was shown on TV (which was every fricken' Saturday thanks to it being the Leafs and all) something would stir in our stomachs making us nauseous.

That trade haunted us Flames' fans. Every Saturday. Every Saturday where the analysts would show how much of a hero Gilmour was. How beloved Gilmour became in Toronto.

Now excuse me as I puke. My stomach doesn't feel good right now.

[Party Elephant]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

One that hasn't been mentioned: Brendan Morrison for Brian Connelly

That trade was pretty meh, as Morrison had clearly lost a step that year and was not producing at the near the rate of his previous season.

In hindsight, the 2011 trade deadline was a golden opportunity to gut the team and get some value for veterans, but instead Feaster decided to be a "buyer", acquiring Brett Carson and Freddie Modin to push for the playoffs, neither registering a point in the process. Imagine the returns we could have got that year for players such as Iginla (43G 86Pts, his last truly elite season), Tanguay (22G 69Pts and an expiring UFA), Bourque (27G 50pts), Glenncross (24G 43Pts and an expiring UFA on a dirt cheap contract), Morrison (43Pts, also a dirt cheap UFA). Talk about jump starting a rebuild.

[Mister Yamoto]

Gilmour trade is the worst for so many reasons but Doug Risebrough isn't nearly as much of an idiot as some are making out to be. Don't get me wrong, I think he was a terrible Flames GM but there are some other factors.

Being GM of the team with a low payroll is one thing, but Risebroughs' job was much worse. He had to transition the Flames from the highest payroll to one of the lowest. Not a lot opportunities to make a blockbuster there. Basically the Flames were the 98 Marlins. There is a reason Cliff Fletcher left when he did. Because he saw what was coming.

And I know the thread is about Flames trades but after flopping in Calgary he went and learned from Glen Sather, got another shot in Minnesota and did much better. Doug Risebrough has forgotten more about hockey than any of us will ever know. Those old enough to remember him playing know what kind of guy he is. Total warrior. Captain of captains.

[Love]

Gilmour, Hull and St.Louis deals were before my time.

Feaster's hand was forced with Iginla, and I honestly believe that he brought back all with his limited negotiating skills regarding Bouwmeester.

For me, it's got to be the Dion trade. Just putrid. I feel like Sutter let his ego get in the way of this one. I assume not many GM's even know Dion was on the block (ala: Hamilton). Regardless of the controversy surrounding his name at the time, we were still talking about a 24 year old top 4 (AT WORST) dman, that had shown flashes of top pairing upside, had two 50 point seasons and another 60 point campaign under his belt. Was a solid skater (clunky mechanics), was a booming hitter and had shown powerplay quarterback potential.

This was a player who:

At age 20: was the runner up in Calder voting to Ovechkin and Crosby, and was seen as the next potential generational/franchise defenseman in this league, and also finished 8th in Norris voting.

At age 21: Finished 6th in Norris trophy voting and was the clear youngest of anyone in the top 10 by 5 years of age. Also finished 6th in All-star voting for defenseman.

At age 22: Finished 12th in Hart trophy voting (Ahead of Chara, Kovalchuk, Crosby, Lecavalier...), was 2nd in Norris trophy voting and found himself on the first allstar team league-wide along side Nick Lidstrom.

Age 23: (A down year and he still) Found himself 12th in Norris trophy voting.

And then at age 24: After a rocky ~50 games found himself on his way to Toronto being exchanged for plugs (Mayers, White), July 15th afterthought depth forwards (Hagman) and a solid, but ordinary bottom six matchup centerman (Staj).

I get it, there was a rift in the room, but to not even be able to get back a first round pick or a top prospect for him, let alone a rightful package that should have contained both and more, was horrifically bad and I have a hard time putting another deal that I've witnessed in my time as a Calgary Flames fan anywhere near that level of atrocity.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

It's the Gilmour trade easily. It gutted a potentially championship roster overnight. It took the Flames from perennial cup favorite status to 1st round exit fodder....and eventually the team turned into the hot mess of the Young Guns era.

The Gilmour trade was the very day that the Flames began their decline. They've never been close to that level since.

I will despise Risebrough for the rest of my days purely for how he handled those years.

This thread makes me sad.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

OMG I forgot Regehr (who I loved) + Kotalik for Byron + 2nd.

You have that trade wrong.

It was:

Regehr
Kotalik
2nd round pick in '12

For

Paul Byron
Chris Butler

....yes, it was a horrific trade. At least Regehr got his name on the Cup in the end though, so good for him.

[_Q_]

Gilmore trade by a mile. That might be the worst trade in any sport of all time.

Second for me is the Savard trade, then probably St Louis.

The Phaneuf trade wasn't even in the same stratosphere as these three.

[Huntingwhale]

Gilmour trade, and it's really not close. That brought upon 10+ years of suckage, and it can all be traced back as a domino effect to that very trade.

But I'm not on board with the Hull trade. That brought back a very good backup goalie and a middle pairing D which led to the cup. Not a good return on paper, but the game isn't played on paper luckily. The goal of any franchise is to win the cup. Period. End of story. Not to win trades. It's to do what needs to be done to win the cup. Personally I'd prefer to trade away Hull after a great rookie season and go to a cup parade, then keep him and his 700+ goals around and have no cup.

As controversial as it might be, if the Flames trade Gaudreau for trash next week but it brings us the cup in June, in hindsight you make that trade 10/10.

[calgaryred]

Gilmour for Leeman that 6 player trade was horrible. Not one of the players in the trade was worth it for Calgary. I also think trading Joey Mullen for nothing was an absolute joke.

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk

[FireGilbert]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

Gilmour trade, and it's really not close. That brought upon 10+ years of suckage, and it can all be traced back as a domino effect to that very trade.

But I'm not on board with the Hull trade. That brought back a very good backup goalie and a middle pairing D which led to the cup. Not a good return on paper, but the game isn't played on paper luckily. The goal of any franchise is to win the cup. Period. End of story. Not to win trades. It's to do what needs to be done to win the cup. Personally I'd prefer to trade away Hull after a great rookie season and go to a cup parade, then keep him and his 700+ goals around and have no cup.

As controversial as it might be, if the Flames trade Gaudreau for trash next week but it brings us the cup in June, in hindsight you make that trade 10/10.

Regarding Hull, the Flames winning the cup turned it from possibly the worst trade in Flames history to just a bad trade. Getting a backup goalie and mid pair defenceman for one of the greatest goal scorers of all time was pathetic.
Yeah the cup was nice but trading Hull for a poor return greatly hurt the chances of winning multiple cups in the early 90s.

When I look at trades where a team gave up a future superstar in exchange for a cup I think of Iginla for Nieuwendyk. Unlike a backup goalie and mid defencmen who were minor contributors, Dallas actually got the Conn Smyth winner who they definitely do not win the cup without.

Even if you do buy the idea the Flames don't win the cup without Ramage and Wamsley why did they need to give up Hull for them? Wouldn't a couple draft picks have been sufficient?

[Bourque's Twin]

This trade isn't as obviously terrible as the Gilmore trade, but it had a huge impact on the 2004 team's core and it was the beginning of the end of that team.

Andrew Ference
Chuck Kobasew

for

Wayne Primeau
Brad Stuart

Ference had just signed a deal and wanted to be a Flame long-term. He was already an important piece. Kobasew is one of Iginla's best friends, and even though he wasn't the most amazing player, he was a part of that team's identity.

Primeau was a complete disaster on the ice, and Stuart was a pompous POS who didn't even want to play in Calgary.

That trade gutted the 2004 team's heart and soul.

[Steve Bozek]

Originally Posted by FireGilbert

Regarding Hull, the Flames winning the cup turned it from possibly the worst trade in Flames history to just a bad trade. Getting a backup goalie and mid pair defenceman for one of the greatest goal scorers of all time was pathetic.
Yeah the cup was nice but trading Hull for a poor return greatly hurt the chances of winning multiple cups in the early 90s.

When I look at trades where a team gave up a future superstar in exchange for a cup I think of Iginla for Nieuwendyk. Unlike a backup goalie and mid defencmen who were minor contributors, Dallas actually got the Conn Smyth winner who they definitely do not win the cup without.

Even if you do buy the idea the Flames don't win the cup without Ramage and Wamsley why did they need to give up Hull for them? Wouldn't a couple draft picks have been sufficient?

I agree. Hull was a natural goal scorer on a level with Mike Bossy, and if the Islanders had traded a young Mike Bossy because he didn't play a complete game, they might have won one Stanley Cup, but not 4. Trading Hull is probably why the Flames dynasty stopped at one.

The trade also is, in my opinion, the reason why the Flames didn't win the Cup in '88, not because of the loss of Hull, but because of the other player they lost in the trade - Steve Bozek. Bozek was Calgary's best checking forward, and an Oiler-killer, who was a a big part of Bob Johnson's multi-point plan to tame the Oilers. The Oilers were essentially a 2 line team then, and by strong checking against the Oilers' top lines, the Flames could roll 4 lines and beat them. In 'the '88 playoffs, after owning the Oilers in the regular season, then losing Bozek and Hull, the Oilers swept the Flames in the second round. Wamsley and Ramage contributed almost zero in their debut with the Flames - Wamsley was injured and Ramage was nowhere near the defenseman he had been.

I still vote for the Gilmour Macoun trade as the worst, but Risebrough had a role in the Hull trade as well.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

It's the Gilmour trade easily. It gutted a potentially championship roster overnight. It took the Flames from perennial cup favorite status to 1st round exit fodder....and eventually the team turned into the hot mess of the Young Guns era.

The Gilmour trade was the very day that the Flames began their decline. They've never been close to that level since.

I will despise Risebrough for the rest of my days purely for how he handled those years.

This thread makes me sad.

How frustrating it was while Risebrough basically sat on his hands after that and wouldn't make anymore moves to improve the team.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

BTW, I'm disqualifying any votes for the "Gilmore" trade. WTF guys? It's Gilmour. If you can't spell the name right, you are probably too young to remember that trade.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by FireGilbert

Regarding Hull, the Flames winning the cup turned it from possibly the worst trade in Flames history to just a bad trade. Getting a backup goalie and mid pair defenceman for one of the greatest goal scorers of all time was pathetic.
Yeah the cup was nice but trading Hull for a poor return greatly hurt the chances of winning multiple cups in the early 90s.

When I look at trades where a team gave up a future superstar in exchange for a cup I think of Iginla for Nieuwendyk. Unlike a backup goalie and mid defencmen who were minor contributors, Dallas actually got the Conn Smyth winner who they definitely do not win the cup without.

Even if you do buy the idea the Flames don't win the cup without Ramage and Wamsley why did they need to give up Hull for them? Wouldn't a couple draft picks have been sufficient?

I don't recall Ramage being a "minor contributor". When Suter got injured, he stepped up big time. At least that's how I remember it, but it was quite some time ago LOL.

IIRC, Hull was thought of as having good offensive potential, but was considered poorly conditioned, lazy and a defensive liability. I don't recall him being considered an elite prospect at the time. I also don't think Crisp liked him, which likely was led to him being included in the trade in the first place.

[ballin]

The 3rd to Tampa for Jason Weimer.........

[Steve Bozek]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

I don't recall Ramage being a "minor contributor". When Suter got injured, he stepped up big time. At least that's how I remember it, but it was quite some time ago LOL.

IIRC, Hull was thought of as having good offensive potential, but was considered poorly conditioned, lazy and a defensive liability. I don't recall him being considered an elite prospect at the time. I also don't think Crisp liked him, which likely was led to him being included in the trade in the first place.

Suter got injured in the '89 playoffs, not '88. Ramage was underwhelming and a penalty magnet when he first arrived. In the 1988-89 season he was a 5th defenseman, who stepped up admirably in the playoffs after Suter's injury.