[News] Ex-Flame Chris Simon joins concussion lawsuit against NHL

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

My issue with the enforcer role in this concussion story line is the following. The negative impacts to your health of bare knuckle boxing are not something we are "just learning about" or has been buried by the league up until recently. Everyone has been aware for decades that getting punched in the head is bad for you.

I do agree that the NHL has some responsibility to play here for what they allowed (allow) in the game. But I also feel like the enforcers have to take a huge amount of responsibility for their own health, safety and long term impacts to both. They knowingly chose to make their living throwing punches in the NHL. I'm not on board with a complete displacement of responsibility from those individuals, or even less than the majority of responsibility falling to those individuals.

A lot of dialogue goes around about "what choice" did the enforcer have? The answer is, to not play in the NHL. Most of these players (although Simon may be an exception), weren't good enough to make it in the league on their skills alone. They chose to pursue 6 figure to multi million dollar annual salaries, and they chose to pursue their dream of playing in the NHL and were willing to do so by knowingly accepting the enforcer role. They didn't have to make the big bucks, they didn't have to earn a living playing hockey. They could have made the choice the rest of us did when our dreams of being pro athletes clearly weren't going to work out, pivot, and earn our livings in another fashion.

While I'm not against the NHL accepting and being forced to pay for any damage their negligence their policies may have perpetuate, I don't easily accept that many of these players, especially the enforcers aren't largely responsible for the risks they took knowingly in many cases.

[ToewsFan]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I know I hit the nail on the head. That he got handsomely compensated doesn't change the fact that the league exploited him and all enforcers.

The book "Game Misconduct" should be required reading by any hockey fan. It follows the life of career white collar criminal and former NHLPA boss from 1967-92 Alan Eagleson. Most of the players strikes and lockouts are an indirect result of Eagleson's treatment of the players, and the embezzling he did with their pensions, in order to invest in his own companies, or to give money to his buddies, including former Prime Minister Brian Mulroney.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I know I hit the nail on the head. That he got handsomely compensated doesn't change the fact that the league exploited him and all enforcers.

While true, Chris Simon is the complete opposite of a sympathetic figure in this case. As the first reply noted - Simon should be a defendant in a series of concussion lawsuits, not just a plaintiff in this one. And if he deserves to be in the winning end of the latter, he deserves to be on the losing end of the former.

[Strange Brew]

Many jobs have risks, and those working in those occupations knowingly accept those risks. But that doesn't absolve those who profit from their employment to share information they know of relative to those risks.

No one ever thought being punched was good for you but we certainly know a lot more about its long term effects today. Chris Simon may or may not be a good guy but I do believe the league has a responsibility to its players regardless of the fact they make big salaries playing hockey.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

My issue with the enforcer role in this concussion story line is the following. The negative impacts to your health of bare knuckle boxing are not something we are "just learning about" or has been buried by the league up until recently. Everyone has been aware for decades that getting punched in the head is bad for you.

I do agree that the NHL has some responsibility to play here for what they allowed (allow) in the game. But I also feel like the enforcers have to take a huge amount of responsibility for their own health, safety and long term impacts to both. They knowingly chose to make their living throwing punches in the NHL. I'm not on board with a complete displacement of responsibility from those individuals, or even less than the majority of responsibility falling to those individuals.

A lot of dialogue goes around about "what choice" did the enforcer have? The answer is, to not play in the NHL. Most of these players (although Simon may be an exception), weren't good enough to make it in the league on their skills alone. They chose to pursue 6 figure to multi million dollar annual salaries, and they chose to pursue their dream of playing in the NHL and were willing to do so by knowingly accepting the enforcer role. They didn't have to make the big bucks, they didn't have to earn a living playing hockey. They could have made the choice the rest of us did when our dreams of being pro athletes clearly weren't going to work out, pivot, and earn our livings in another fashion.

While I'm not against the NHL accepting and being forced to pay for any damage their negligence their policies may have perpetuate, I don't easily accept that many of these players, especially the enforcers aren't largely responsible for the risks they took knowingly in many cases.

Agreed. We all know a person who's stuck in their job. I've met guys in back breaking labour jobs who have little education or opportunity for improvement ask me how they can make a change. That's tough to answer because they have no skills. Nevertheless I never see them put together a fresh resume, apply for jobs, or make an attempt to boost their career. Hell, there's places that offers free training, but people can't get off the couch.

There are just facts of life. Simon was one of the lucky ones. People might point to the dead hockey players from suicide or the CTE cases, but relatively speaking, there are Canadians who can barely read working hard jobs for #### pay until their death, some of whom die from occupational hazards like respiratory diseases or other exposures. Those guys don't get a lawsuit. They don't get 15 million.

And CTE sucks, but so does a lot of occupational conditions. Chronic back pain? Chronic neck pain? Vibration syndrome from using a jackhammer for many years? You can't tell me those are fun conditions to live with.

So here's Simon, getting paid 15 million for a job that literally gets the summer off, otherwise he's paid for 60 mins shifts (more like 10 minute shifts) over an 82-night work year. And all he's expected to do is practice, watch film, and hit the gym. Other than the challenges of travel, that's a gravy job. Of course he's willing to pump his body full of drugs and then hit the ice like a predator and sometimes take a beating.

Did he have to? The guy had over 750 games played. He could've played for only 200 games, called it quits because he valued his health, and then STILL been better off than millions of other Canadians.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Many jobs have risks, and those working in those occupations knowingly accept those risks. But that doesn't absolve those who profit from their employment to share information they know of relative to those risks.

No one ever thought being punched was good for you but we certainly know a lot more about its long term effects today. Chris Simon may or may not be a good guy but I do believe the league has a responsibility to its players regardless of the fact they make big salaries playing hockey.

It wouldn't have changed a thing. If I can tell every roofer in this province that falls from 2 stories will cause a permanently disabling injury 75% of the time, I betcha I can drive down any neighbourhood under construction and STILL find roofers walking around on high angles without a harness. The league could've given Simon a bloody degree in Neurology and he STILL would've stepped onto that ice every time.

Who's really to blame, the league for paying him 15 million? Or the fans for paying hundreds of dollars to watch and cheer for an event where two good men violently strike each other for the purposes of entertainment?

What did you think was going to happen to this man's brain when you roared in excitement from your middle section seat after watching Simon getting beat up by your favorite team's goon?

[ToewsFan]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

Agreed. We all know a person who's stuck in their job. I've met guys in back breaking labour jobs who have little education or opportunity for improvement ask me how they can make a change. That's tough to answer because they have no skills. Nevertheless I never see them put together a fresh resume, apply for jobs, or make an attempt to boost their career. Hell, there's places that offers free training, but people can't get off the couch.

There are just facts of life. Simon was one of the lucky ones. People might point to the dead hockey players from suicide or the CTE cases, but relatively speaking, there are Canadians who can barely read working hard jobs for #### pay until their death, some of whom die from occupational hazards like respiratory diseases or other exposures. Those guys don't get a lawsuit. They don't get 15 million.

And CTE sucks, but so does a lot of occupational conditions. Chronic back pain? Chronic neck pain? Vibration syndrome from using a jackhammer for many years? You can't tell me those are fun conditions to live with.

So here's Simon, getting paid 15 million for a job that literally gets the summer off, otherwise he's paid for 60 mins shifts (more like 10 minute shifts) over an 82-night work year. And all he's expected to do is practice, watch film, and hit the gym. Other than the challenges of travel, that's a gravy job. Of course he's willing to pump his body full of drugs and then hit the ice like a predator and sometimes take a beating.

Did he have to? The guy had over 750 games played. He could've played for only 200 games, called it quits because he valued his health, and then STILL been better off than millions of other Canadians.

So we should just do away with WCB, and let people fend for themselves, in other words.

You are just generalizing all people with low paying jobs. Some actually have gone and upgraded, and landed better jobs. Some simply do not have the time due to family commitments and other issues. It's not a black and white issue.

[ToewsFan]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

It wouldn't have changed a thing. If I can tell every roofer in this province that falls from 2 stories will cause a permanently disabling injury 75% of the time, I betcha I can drive down any neighbourhood under construction and STILL find roofers walking around on high angles without a harness.

Well you would have to drive through quite a number of construction sites in that case. In most workplaces today, especially construction sites, there is a safety culture. Anyone caught not wearing a harness, safety PPE could cost the company hundreds of dollars if caught. It simply isn't worth it. Almost all construction sites have Safety Officers to take preventative measures to ensure workers are following safety procedures.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by ToewsFan

So we should just do away with WCB, and let people fend for themselves, in other words.

You are just generalizing all people with low paying jobs. Some actually have gone and upgraded, and landed better jobs. Some simply do not have the time due to family commitments and other issues. It's not a black and white issue.

No, you only read my most recent posts. If you go back and read them all, I clearly point out that the cause of these litigations are because of a lack of WCB.

Originally Posted by ToewsFan

Well you would have to drive through quite a number of construction sites in that case. In most workplaces today, especially construction sites, there is a safety culture. Anyone caught not wearing a harness, safety PPE could cost the company hundreds of dollars if caught. It simply isn't worth it. Almost all construction sites have Safety Officers to take preventative measures to ensure workers are following safety procedures.

I found this to be pretty cute. Only about 13000 companies in the province have COR, and even with COR, you only need to have a few days training. There's probably closer to 1/10th of that number of companies who employ a CRSP. Little companies usually have the receptionist or supervisor manage the safety documents.

Maybe you're use to that working on a Shell site, but think about residential work. When you hire a guy off Kijiji to trim your tree or install your backsplash, you think they have COR? Home builders largely hire based price, because if they only hired a CSA Z1000 certified company with a 0 TRIF stat, chances are your typical 3 bedroom bungalow would cost 2 million dollars -- which isnt going to sell. They hire buddy owner operator who employs his cousin and they'll climb on your roof and install your shingles using the cheapest methods possible.

[Red_Baron]

Hopefully his settlement reflects the number of times he was suspended and is reduced accordingly. Players like Kariya suffered because there were players like Simon who crossed the line far too often.
I propose he loses 1.5% of his share of the settlement for each game he was suspended for.

[JiriHrdina]

For me this case hinges entirely on what did the NHL know about concussions, when did they know it and what did they do and not do with that knowledge in place.
It has little to do with the role these guys served, how dirty they were, or anything like that.
It is all about if the NHL acted in a responsible manner when they had relevant information.
I'm no fan of goons, but I have empathy for anyone that is suffering long-term consequences as a result of concussions. That is an awful fate that wealth doesn't really erase.

[ToewsFan]

The bottom line is people who attend games come to see Gaudreau, Monahan, etc. They come to see opponents like Crosby, Ovechkin, McDavid, Stamkos, etc. Once they are laying motionless on the ice, and out for the season, who does it benefit? How is the game better? Sadly, the incidence of concussions only increases with time, as the players on the ice are bigger, faster, and mainly their equipment is like body armor.

Watching Lafontaine, Kariya, Lindros, Savard, Horton, Pronger, and now Crosby have their careers cut short only taints the game. One would think that the NHL would be doing everything it could to prevent their star players from getting hurt. However, nothing has changed. The owners treated the players horribly when they were making peanuts relative to other sport. The only difference is now the players make considerably more. Anyone who thinks the NHL looks out for its star players is sadly mistaken.

[GordonBlue]

And anyone who thinks the players look after their own is also sadly mistaken.

[trublmaker]

Originally Posted by GordonBlue

And anyone who thinks the players look after their own is also sadly mistaken.

Or the NHLPA

[Russic]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

For me this cases hinges entirely on what did the NHL know about concussions, when did they know it and what did they do and not do with that knowledge in place.
It has little to do with the role these guys served, how dirty they were, or anything like that.
It is all about if the NHL acted in a responsible manner when they had relevant information.
I'm no fan of goons, but I have empathy for anyone that is suffering long-term consequences as a result of concussions. That is an awful fate that wealth doesn't really erase.

Absolutely. It's easy to become emotionally invested in this argument as it touches on several hot-button issues for people like mental illness and suicide. At the end of the day – as mentioned above – it'll be a matter of what they knew. What works in the NHLs favour here is that concussion research is still working towards a lot of answers. We still have a ways to go in understanding why some people are crippled while others remain quite stable. That's an annoying nit-picky detail to people like us, but in a court defence that could be very important.

[ernie]

Just throwing this out there...how are these lawsuits affected with some of the concussion research that suggests resuming activity rather then resting the days immediately following a concussion lead to better recoveries? Admittedly contact is certainly not part of those post-concussion activities. And of course you have the angle of whether the league knew or not of the link to CTE and if they did anything to that end.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by ernie

Just throwing this out there...how are these lawsuits affected with some of the concussion research that suggests resuming activity rather then resting the days immediately following a concussion lead to better recoveries? Admittedly contact is certainly not part of those post-concussion activities. And of course you have the angle of whether the league knew or not of the link to CTE and if they did anything to that end.

I was not aware of this line of research. My son suffered a concussion this year and this was not the recommended course of action. And in his situation, it was very difficult to determine when he should be nudged towards resuming school etc.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

I'm no fan of goons, but I have empathy for anyone that is suffering long-term consequences as a result of concussions. That is an awful fate that wealth doesn't really erase.

Yeah, you can't buy a new brain, no matter how much money you made.

I can sort of get the eye-rolling lack of sympathy for Chris Simon. When you get right down to it, he was trying to give people concussions. They of course don't say that or maybe even look at it that way, but knocking someone out with one punch is (or was) A) a cause for celebration and potentially a raise and B) a concussion (far as I know).

He was also a pretty dirty player even with his gloves on.

But still, if you hire a young man to get in fights and wreak havoc, you shouldn't be off the hook for the repercussions even if you paid him well to do it.

[Flash Walken]

The point is that these players may not have been receiving accurate medical advice due to the NHLs adverse response to concussion research and funding.

The idea isn't that if you knowingly work with aesbestos that you deserve cancer, it's that if you work with aesbestos and your employer tells you it's safe when they know that it might not be, you don't deserve cancer.

The NHL is WOEFUL when it comes to protecting the health of their contractors/employees. This has the potential to damage the league in such a significant way it's hard to predict what a multi-billion dollar judgement would do to the league's finances.

The lawyer representing the family of former Blackhawks player Steve Montador, who died Feb. 15 and whose autopsy revealed he suffered from extensive CTE (chronic traumatic encephalopathy), said Friday he was "shocked" when he was watching Game 3 of the Western Conference finals and he read a tweet from a Tribune reporter featuring a quote from NHL Commissioner Gary Bettman.

Meeting with the media between periods of Thursday night's game between the Hawks and Ducks at the United Center, Bettman was asked about the autopsy report revealing CTE in Montador. He replied that there has been no connection established between the brain disease that is linked to concussions and playing in the NHL.

"The fact of the matter is, from a medical and science standpoint, there is no evidence yet that one necessarily leads to the other," Bettman said. "I know there are a lot of theories, but if you ask the people who study it, they tell you there is no statistical correlation where they can definitively make that conclusion."

William Gibbs of the Chicago-based law firm Corboy & Demetrio, who plans to file a lawsuit in the coming months on behalf of the Montador family against the NHL, said he was floored when he read a portion of that statement on Twitter.

"I presumed that he must have been misquoted because it made no sense to me," Gibbs told the Tribune. "I guess there has been no medical or scientific study saying that if you have 15 shots of whiskey and drive the wrong way down an interstate highway you're going to hurt someone. Do we need such a study to know it's dangerous? Mr. Bettman seems to be saying that there is no link between repetitive head trauma sustained during a professional hockey career and later in life issues, which is shocking in this day and age."

Montador was found dead in his Mississauga, Ontario, home at age 35 and on May 12 the Canadian Sports Concussion Project at the Krembil Neuroscience Centre in Toronto announced the 10-year NHL player, who suffered numerous concussions during his career, had CTE.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by Russic

Absolutely. It's easy to become emotionally invested in this argument as it touches on several hot-button issues for people like mental illness and suicide. At the end of the day – as mentioned above – it'll be a matter of what they knew. What works in the NHLs favour here is that concussion research is still working towards a lot of answers. We still have a ways to go in understanding why some people are crippled while others remain quite stable. That's an annoying nit-picky detail to people like us, but in a court defence that could be very important.

I don't think it will necessarily be an issue on what they knew, I think it could be an issue on what they could have known and what they did about that. Remember, in breaches of duty or negligence cases, the court uses the standard what a reasonable person would do under similiar circumstances. A due diligence defense would involve showing what steps you took to carry out your duty under said standard.

So if at the time of Chris Simon's playing career, what was the known science and what did the league do that any reasonable person would do to take care of player safety. If it was fairly well established that blows to the head was bad for an athlete's long term health (which I'm sure was obvious in the 90's based on boxing research), then what steps was the league taking to prevent them?

But I'm just throwing around unqualified speculation. I ultimately have no familiarity with this case. I didn't even read all the information that was released