How does Matthew Tkachuk compare to the best rookies in Flames history?

[Flashpoint]

Originally Posted by Jakester

Didn't they change the rules on Calder Trophy eligibility because Makarov won as a 31 year old who had ten years experience in the Soviet league?

I don't think Iggy's rookie season should be overlooked. He scored 50 points as a 19 year old on a bad team at the beginning of a very low scoring era.

Was Carey Wilson actually that good or was his 72 point rookie season a product of the mid 80's?

Yes they changed the rule due to Makarov.

Iggy's first game was in the playoffs vs Chi the season prior. He scored. It was a sign of what was to come.

Carey Wilson was a talented player, but somewhat soft (for that era) and sadly made of glass. He also played for a VERY high octane team from the D out.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by FireGilbert

When comparing with the 80s players you also have to take into account the fact it was a higher scoring era. The 1987/88 Flames scored 397 goals while the 2016/17 Flames are on pace for 225. Nieuwendyk would have only scored 52 points if playing today.

Your talking about Nieuwendyk who scored 51 goals his rookie season? He would only score 52 points if playing today?

[heep223]

Originally Posted by DazzlinDino

Your talking about Nieuwendyk who scored 51 goals his rookie season? He would only score 52 points if playing today?

It's not an unreasonable assumption tbh. Goal scoring I think i read is around 65% of what is was in the 80s due to horrendous pre-butterfly goaltending. That would make Nieywendyk's equivalent 59 points in his rookie season.

[GGG]

Not one mention of Phaneufs rookie season. He was legitimately in the conversation with Crosby and Ovechkin in a double rookie crop year for the best in the league. That he fell off and got traded makes it less memorable but I think his was the best one I watched (basically Iggy onward)

[Nage Waza]

It is very hard (impossible) to make these comparisons, especially with the game changing so much. When Nieuwendyk played his official rookie season, the Flames went from pretty good to the most dominant team in the league, and the following year won the cup.
Tkachuk, Monahan and Bennet are early first round draft picks that the flames have certainly missed for many years, and are easy to get excited about, but I wouldn't compare them to some of the best ever (not yet at least).

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by heep223

It's not an unreasonable assumption tbh. Goal scoring I think i read is around 65% of what is was in the 80s due to horrendous pre-butterfly goaltending. That would make Nieywendyk's equivalent 59 points in his rookie season.

Not unreasonable for sure considering there are so many factors to consider. But Mike Bossy who had 53 goals his rookie season would be good for 54 points in today's standards? Not sure I agree. I watched them both play both were very, very dominant players much like Iggy was in his prime. They were driven kind of like you see in Cosby, Ovie and could do a lot on their own. I think Tkachuk is driven but not in the same way, he is not as dominant but does a lot of little thing so well. I believe Nieywendyk was considered to be one of the top 100 NHL players so good on Tkachuk for making such an impression in his rookie season!. That said watching the way Tkachuk screens goalies reminds me a lot of Nieywendyk, the kid is amazing.

[flame^thrower]

Originally Posted by Eric Vail

The Flames and Oilers made the Smythe one of the best divisions. The Norris was the division that was terrible.

Yes I recall people calling it the 'Snorris' division

[GioforPM]

I'd put Tkachuk behind Newy, maybe Suter, maybe Gaudreau. Something like Fleury, Monahan, especially in terms of impact on the team. Better than Plett. I don't count Makarov.

[EVERLAST]

Matthew is up there but he's got allot of company.

My favorites from the past
Dan Quinn
Sergei Makarov
Carey Wilson (before and after spleen removal)
Gary Suter
Joe Niewendyk (dude was a beast)
Theo
Regher (plates in his legs and all)
The Dion....wow he was electric
Monahan
Gaudreau

I knew Marty St.Louis was going to be good too before they gave up and traded him.
Brett Hull.....Nuff said.

Wow....looking back.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by FireGilbert

When comparing with the 80s players you also have to take into account the fact it was a higher scoring era. The 1987/88 Flames scored 397 goals while the 2016/17 Flames are on pace for 225. Nieuwendyk would have only scored 52 points if playing today.

That doesn't follow. The '87-88 Flames were the highest scoring team in the league and it wasn't even close. The '16-17 Flames are middle of the pack. The average NHL team scored 297 goals in '87-88, so the real conversion factor is something like 0.75. That would give Nieuwendyk a very respectable 38 goals and 69 points.

[polak]

Bennett and Monahan had good rookie years where they proved they were NHL'ers but they weren't remarkable.

Phaneuf and Gaudreau had remarkable rookie seasons. Tkachuk is trending that way even though he's not scoring as much. His overall game is what really sets him apart.

[FireGilbert]

Originally Posted by DazzlinDino

Your talking about Nieuwendyk who scored 51 goals his rookie season? He would only score 52 points if playing today?

I didn't pick a random number, I used a calculator. Nieuwendyk scoring 50 as a rookie is incredibly impressive and is the best rookie season in Flames history. Tkachuk deserves to be in the conversation however and is at least top 5.

[Jakester]

It should also be noted that in addition to there being a lot less scoring in today's NHL, there's also a lot fewer outliers. In Nieuwendyk's rookie season, the NHL's leading scorer was Mario Lemieux, who had 168 points, 29 more than the second leading scorer, Wayne Gretzky. Gretzky, in turn, had 18 more points than the third leading scorer, Denis Savard, who had 10 more than Dale Hawerchuk. Scorers 1-10 were separated by 52 points and 1-20 were separated by 79 points.

This year, scorers 1-10 are separated by only 8 points and 1-20 by only 17. Nieuwendyk's 92 points put him at 16th. This year's 16th leading scorer will probably score 70-75 points, so it would probably be a reasonable projection that 1987-88 Nieuwendyk, were he playing today, would probably score about that many. Tkachuk is on pace for 50-55 points, which will put him in the top 100, but only just.

It is worth noting that Tkachuk made the NHL full time at 18, whereas Nieuwendyk didn't make it until he was 21.

[Young_Guns]

Originally Posted by evman150

That hockey card makes me miss the old NHL logo. Shame they ever changed it.

I never quite understood it either. For a while they were officially using a silver shield on the jerseys, instead of orange, but they still had the NHL running down and to the right. Then they completely destroyed it in my opinion by flipping the direction "NHL" runs across the shield. I guess it was "the new NHL" after the lockout. I too miss the old orange NHL shield. Is the NHL the only league to ever change their logo? I don't pay a whole lot of attention to the other leagues but it seems NBA, MLB, and NFL have all looked the same ever since I can remember.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Young_Guns

Is the NHL the only league to ever change their logo? I don't pay a whole lot of attention to the other leagues but it seems NBA, MLB, and NFL have all looked the same ever since I can remember.

The NFL tweaks its logo every couple of decades or so. Here, for instance, is the logo they used from 1983 to 2007:



And the current logo, in use since 2008:



I wasn't impressed with the NHL logo change myself. For one thing, some bright young advertising genius decided that the letters ‘NHL’ should slope upwards to the right, to signify that the league is rising rather than falling. If the bright young thing had known anything about heraldry, (s)he would have realized that the original design incorporated a bend dexter (which is said to represent a knight's right arm reaching to unsheathe his sword, and therefore strength and martial courage), and the redesign incorporates a bend sinister (which is, though incorrectly, associated with illegitimacy).

[Clarkey]

Post 95 would be a better discussion...

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by timbit

( 51 G 91 pts Calder) Joe Nieuwendyk?
(Calder)Gary Suter?
(Finalist) Johnny Gaudreau?
Theoren Fleury?
Mike Vernon?

Just off memory. Not even in the conversation.

I wouldn't include Fleury personally, he was only up for half the season and while it was spectacular it's hard for me to say he was better than Tkachuk who made the team out of camp.

For me Suter's season was the best, followed closely by Nieuwendyk's. I also think Dion's rookie season deserves some love, scoring 20 goals as a rookie defenseman was an incredible feat and if he wasn't stuck in the rookie class he was in, he likely would have easily won the Calder.

[troutman]

Jim Peplinski = 38 points

Eric Vail = 60 points, Calder

Tom Lysiak = 64 points

Guy Chouinard = 50 points

Kevin Lavallee = 35 points

[FBI]

The only thing that is a bummer here is that Tkachuk might be our last new young star for awhile.. I guess it's cool that Janko had a whole season in the AHL as maybe he can fill some of that for next year.. Or maybe Lazar comes out of nowhere or Kylington/Andersson/Mangiapane take a big leap.

[tkflames]

Originally Posted by FBI

The only thing that is a bummer here is that Tkachuk might be our last new young star for awhile.. I guess it's cool that Janko had a whole season in the AHL as maybe he can fill some of that for next year.. Or maybe Lazar comes out of nowhere or Kylington/Andersson/Mangiapane take a big leap.

Backlund was a mid-twenties pick