Klein " We already give more than our fair share"

[FireFly]

Originally posted by Flame Of Liberty@Sep 17 2005, 11:07 AM
The point is he is a hypocrite. He say "we already give more..." but the truth is he as a person is not giving anything. If he said "Alberta taxpayers already give more..." that would be different.

Right. I see now. Politicians just take and take and take. They don't do anything for the province or the people in it. And since WE have ELECTED to pay HIM, that's his fault. Gotcha. And because it's his fault, we should just go ahead and pay for the people everyone else elected too.... Forget Ontario paying the people they elect themselves. Alberta should just pay them too. Good plan.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally posted by peter12@Sep 17 2005, 11:28 AM
The thing that gets me is that the Feds just want our money on principle. Even if the Federal government re-allocates half of our purported surplus, say 3 billion dollars through a carbon tax of some sorts... in reality it is just simple economics levelling. What is that 3 billion dollars going to do to create any long term solutions in the have-not provinces?

Better to let Alberta have the full 6 or 7 billion and let us get our infrastructure et al. back on our feet.

Therein lies the problem of having two threads about the same topic.

The transfer program is so that all Canadians enjoy the same basic level of government provided services, such as child education. Not to solve the problems of the have-not provinces. It's to see that a child in Nova Scotia gets the same quality of education as a child in Alberta. Canadians are Canadians are Canadians. And all should get an equal level of service, no matter which province they live in. If there were no transfers, I wouldn't have gotten a decent education.. Nova Scotia cannot afford it on its own.

transplant: Ah yes, the NEP. I remember voting for Trudeau just for the NEP. No, wait, I was 8. So let me get this straight. You want to keep the money for your big screen TV, so that Newfoundland has to cut faculty from its education facilities, because you're upset about something that happened 25 years ago.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally posted by Tron_fdc@Sep 17 2005, 11:39 AM
No doubt. We need a lot of that money for roads that weren't built, hospitals that were blown up, schools that were never built, and countless other projects that were mothballed in the 80's and 90's when money was tight. Just because there some big surplus now doesn't all of a sudden mean we're smoking cigars wrapped in hundred dollar bills.

Alberta is doing a lot better than most provinces in health care/education.

However, I read Rick Bell from the Calgary Sun quite often and he shows just how much waste and largesse there is in the Klien government. Friends of the premier get their palms greased. A friend of a friend gets a rich contract. I've always wondered why Albertans yell and scream about waste in Ottawa and do nothing about all the items that Rick Bell points out in his articles.

[peter12]

Originally posted by Devils'Advocate@Sep 17 2005, 12:45 PM
Alberta is doing a lot better than most provinces in health care/education.

However, I read Rick Bell from the Calgary Sun quite often and he shows just how much waste and largesse there is in the Klien government. Friends of the premier get their palms greased. A friend of a friend gets a rich contract. I've always wondered why Albertans yell and scream about waste in Ottawa and do nothing about all the items that Rick Bell points out in his articles.

My friend ... my friend...

Two things. Rick Bell is quite possibly the worst person to use as a source for the typical Albertan. Believe me. The guy is a joke, no better way to put it.

Second, your description of the Nova Scotian school sounds pretty much the same as my own Calgary public junior high school.

As Tron said, Alberta is no paradise when it comes to any sort of public services. Don't kid yourself my friend, Alberta could really really use this money right now, as much as anywhere in Canada.

[transplant99]

transplant: Ah yes, the NEP. I remember voting for Trudeau just for the NEP. No, wait, I was 8. So let me get this straight. You want to keep the money for your big screen TV, so that Newfoundland has to cut faculty from its education facilities, because you're upset about something that happened 25 years ago.

in 1984 I lost a job and a home....because of the NEP. Period. It funneled so much money out of ALBERTA to give to other provinces it was preposterous. I have no idea if that money, that was literally stolen from Albertans, did any good anywhere else though i sure hope so...but I sure as hell DO KNOW that it cost thousands upon thousands hard working, taxpaying CANADIANS their homes and jobs.....you know those that lived in Alberta.

Where was the rest of Canada when Alberta needed them? When education cuts and unemployment were rocketing? Oh yes that's right.......receiving money from Alberta through transfer payments. The Liberals had no problem robbing peter to pay paul...but god forbid that paul repay peter.

So instead of bitching and whining about what happened and expecting the rest of the country to send welfare our way...Albertans elected a government that cut and trashed services, cut back salaries to ALL gov't employees as well as many in the private sector, rolled up its sleeves under a sound economic plan and got to work to rebuild everything. What you see today is the fruit of sacrifice from people across the entire province. They have earned what is there, though clearly helped by the sudden increase in oil prices.

Now...after the literal devastation of the energy sector because of the FEDS, and going it alone while still contributing more than it received...Alberta has unequivocally EARNED the right to say....enough is enough.

If we dont learn from the past, we are condenmed to repeat it. Since you were 8 at the time, you likely have zero recollection of how truly scary those times wrere. So your point falls on deaf ears with me. I was there and lived through it...as did many many many others that live in the province.

If I want to buy a big screen TV....thats my damn choice. I earned it by losing all i had 20 years ago. Agreed?

[Wookie]

Originally posted by Flame Of Liberty@Sep 17 2005, 11:34 AM
A quick quote from Making Economic Sense by M. Rothbard because I am too confusing to make sense:

And that is: contrary to carefully instilled myth, politicians and bureaucrats pay no taxes. Take, for example, a politician who receives a salary of, say, $80,000; assume he duly files his income tax return, and pays $20,000. We must realize that he does not in reality pay $20,000 in taxes; instead, he is simply a net tax-receiver of $60,000. The notion that he pays taxes is simply an accounting fiction, designed to bamboozle the citizenry into believing that he and the rest of us are on the same moral and financial footing before the law. He pays nothing; he simply is extracting $60,000 per annum from our pockets.

The same principle, too, applies to sales or property or any other tax. Bureaucrats and politicians do not pay them; they are simply subtracted from the net transfer to themselves from the body of taxpayers.

HAHA, my dad who brings home a government paid salary, what a tool, when ever he complains that he pays a lot in taxes to me, he's really jsut wining that he only takes som much from my paycheck and other, and not really taxes..

Amazing theory

And when that safeway clerk complains that they pay to much taxes, they're really just saying that the groceries us shoppers pay for are partly going to taxes instead oh her/him. So we're paying their taxes for them... or aynone else for that matter...

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Devils'Advocate@Sep 17 2005, 12:01 PM

"We already give enough". According to whom? It really passes me off that one group of Canadians think that they deserve a new big screen TV while the people of Newfoundland see mass layoffs including dropping teachers. The College of the North Atlantic has lost 10 educators in the last two years alone due to budget cuts. The province with the fastest growing economy, the province with the lowest taxes, the province with no provincial debt... is saying "fata you". Rheostatics were right "It's a bad time to be poor, 'cause we don't give a shinguard no more. If you need help, don't look next door, the line's been drawn and warnings staked on the lawn."

Please don't bring up "we're laying off educators" and "the only debt free province" at the same time.

Out here, where the streets are paved with gold, the connection between "laid off teachers" and "debt free" is quite fresh in our minds.

As for "upset about something that happened 25 years ago", you don't have an effing clue.

[peter12]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos@Sep 17 2005, 01:26 PM
Please don't bring up "we're laying off educators" and "the only debt free province" at the same time.

Out here, where the streets are paved with gold, the connection between "laid off teachers" and "debt free" is quite fresh in our minds.

As for "upset about something that happened 25 years ago", you don't have an effing clue.

Exactly. We aren't using 20s to wipe our asses out here. We have overloaded hospitals, crowded decaying classrooms and 2 bottom 3rd ranking universities. We aren't just saying fata you because we are a bunch of pigs wallowing in our cash. Alberta needs this money and if we simply give half of it to the East what do we get in return?

There is no trade off that Albertans could recieve that would make this trade beneficial to us. Sure the federals say it is all for the "Great Federalist Experiment", sounds great... I even believe in the theory.

But come election time the Federal Liberals will have completely forgotten about the West until the Albertan budget comes rolling out.

[Coelah]

Originally posted by Cheese@Sep 17 2005, 11:06 AM
Lest you all forget...this is Canada, you live in it, and overall there is simply no better COUNTRY in the world. The myopic view of a few has always p!ssed me off. Of course the wealthy will help the needy...thats the way we are.
For some reason everyone here thinks that the rest of the country is out to get you. Sounds a bit like a Napoleon syndrome to me.
Either we are little countries within a large land mass where everyone can do what they please without worrying about their neighbors, or we simply help where we can. Yes Alberta helps...yes Ontario helps...same with other provinces. Yes theres issues with our FEDERAL Government...and some Provincial Governments...but no theres no valhalla....regardless what Flame Of Liberty wants you to think.
So heres your choice....run for parliament and help make the changes you think are needed. Hopefully everyone agrees with your ideas.

I absolutely agree. I think the dynamic of equalization (though not perfect) is a major part of the identity of Canada. We don't thrive on the concept of "I got mine, get your own". We're more of a cohesive society because of it. I'm proud to say Alberta with only 3 million people has such a strong economy that we are able to help others in Canada.

But..Alberta already shares. We make our equalization payments and they are substantial. Canada as a whole already benefits from the wealth created in this province. As a populace, Albertans have paid a high price and sacrificed to get to the point where we are debt free and running a strong economy. Now that we are about to reap the rewards of that sacrifice and lucked out with high oil prices, we're expected to share even more on top of equalization? When is enough enough? They want a piece of our surpluses? Then give us back our equalization payments.

Anyone who tries to insinuate that Albertans aren't doing enough for Canada because we have a large surplus, are sadly misinformed.

[Resolute 14]

Originally posted by peter12@Sep 17 2005, 12:56 PM
Exactly. We aren't using 20s to wipe our asses out here. We have overloaded hospitals, crowded decaying classrooms and 2 bottom 3rd ranking universities. We aren't just saying fata you because we are a bunch of pigs wallowing in our cash. Alberta needs this money and if we simply give half of it to the East what do we get in return?

There is no trade off that Albertans could recieve that would make this trade beneficial to us. Sure the federals say it is all for the "Great Federalist Experiment", sounds great... I even believe in the theory.

But come election time the Federal Liberals will have completely forgotten about the West until the Albertan budget comes rolling out.

Exactly.

For what we get back from Canada, we alrerady contribute more than enough to Canada.

If Canada wants more, it can offer us something in return. Until that point, fata the laid off teachers in Newfoundland, fata Ontario, fata Quebec. We went through some very rough times to get where we did. And we did so while being constantly degraded, insulted and attacked by the rest of Canada. Dont come crying to us because you are now enduring what we did to get where we are today.

As I said in the other thread on this topic, Canada can start by reforming government.

Alberta: 3.2 million people (2004) 28 MPs, 6 senators

The Maritimes: 2.3 million people (2004) 32MPs, 24 senators

And, of our six senators, Not a one represents the political party that represents the majority of Albertans in the House of Commons. Five Liberals and an independent.

Reform Canada, and we will talk.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally posted by Flame Of Liberty@Sep 17 2005, 11:59 AM
You dont mind paying taxes, thats fair.

I mind paying taxes. I didnt give any permission to anyone to take away my money. How is that not stealing from me?

I am saying state employees dont pay and cannot possibly pay taxes (while in elected position) because all their income is from taxes already collected. They take amount X from that and take Y back. Which means they simply took X-Y.

Again overly simplistic.

They didn't "take" x-y.

They were paid X, and then they were taxed y. Two different transactions. You can not simply minus one from the other.

[Vulcan]

I'm with Klein on this dispute. I lived through the 80's depression [calling it a recession is being nice] and I managed to keep my house but the pressures on my family were pretty rough. Rush hour in Calgary consisted of five cars and three of them were empty taxis and now people camplain about the traffic. If people are jealous of Alberta's wealth, there is a time honored solution, move.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Just because haven't seen it raised here yet:

If anyone deserves a bigger piece of the great Alberta Money Pie it's the as yet unborn Albertans.

Oil money is like a trust fund - we can sock it away to try and help future generations or pass it away oursleves. Alberta does a fine job of the latter already, though the rest of Canada would dearly love to help.

[CaptainCrunch]

To heck with the unborn children they can fend for themselves.

I like the idea of lighting cigars with a $100.00 bills

A butler for every family

A Alberta wide mooning to the east party

I know I want some fricken sharks with fricken laser beams on thier fricken heads

[HOZ]

Originally posted by CaptainCrunch@Sep 17 2005, 10:18 PM
To heck with the unborn children they can fend for themselves.

I like the idea of lighting cigars with a $100.00 bills

A butler for every family

A Alberta wide mooning to the east party

I know I want some fricken sharks with fricken laser beams on thier fricken heads

As I sit on my deck watching the oil bubble to the surface to be scooped up by my East Asian slave girls I dream of a bigger pick-up with bigger wheels and no muffler! Bring back leaded gas too!

[peter12]

Originally posted by HOZ@Sep 17 2005, 06:16 PM
As I sit on my deck watching the oil bubble to the surface to be scooped up by my East Asian slave girls I dream of a bigger pick-up with bigger wheels and no muffler! Bring back leaded gas too!

Hahaha good one.

A top 10 ranked UofC would sit ok with me.

[tripin_billie]

Originally posted by Hakan@Sep 17 2005, 09:13 AM
The reason those oil royalties are 'yours' is because of some privy council over in England decided to screw the Federal government 100 years ago for trying to have more sovereignty and rights for the people. That oil belongs to all Canadians IMO.

what gets me is that people in ontario sit and bitch about how the resources should be for all canadians etc, etc. They say things like this, that the privy council decided to screw the federal government. All the while, they fail to realize that the original champion of the idea that the provinces have domain over their natural resources was Geroge Brown, premier of Ontario. Its funny, because when it happened, it was Ontario being passed that what it felt was its own was being considered to belong to all of Canada. Oh, how funny it is.

I say, Klein has got it right this time. Tell Ontario and BC to go and make their own money.

[MarchHare]

what gets me is that people in ontario sit and bitch about how the resources should be for all canadians etc, etc.

According to the poll that was recently published, a majority of Albertans think that resources should belong to all Canadians too.

[Trujew]

Originally posted by MarchHare@Sep 18 2005, 02:46 AM

According to the poll that was recently published, a majority of Albertans think that resources should belong to all Canadians too.

Actually (on global news if I remember correctly) it was the opposite

[HBomb]

Originally posted by fotze@Sep 17 2005, 08:06 PM
Canada does enjoy these resources. What a complete fataing myth that only Alberta wins here.

3 trillion newfies and french come to alberta to make amazingly good money to extract this oil. $40 per hour to make two welds a day in Fort Mac.

But the difference between these non-Albertans and the rest is that they have taken a risk and are working for the money. They will be able to retire in Kelowna in a kickass house in 30 years because they were not given money for a fourth degree at mcgill.

As a UofA grad, I think it's time for me to chime in on this one. First, regarding the state of our Universities....I don't know about UofC, but there is a ton of construction of new buildings and labs at the UofA right now. The University is benefitting from the economic boom, partially thanks to the government, but a lot from private donors. It's not just the government investing in the future, it's private individuals and companies too. I was lucky enough to be a part of the most booming part of the UofA, the engineering faculty. And I heard this week that UofC got a big donation to their engineering department too, which is good news. The UofA is a big engineering school, but it alone cannot support the demand in the province for skilled individuals to work in the energy sector.

Second, regarding people from other parts of Canada getting a piece of the action. Move out here! Plenty of jobs in Edmonton, Calgary, Fort Mac and elsewhere. This is the place to be, and people are catching on. Projectinos for 20 years from now have 2 million people in Calgary and 1.5-1.7 million in the metro Edmonton area. Hell, even places like Drayton Valley are booming (it's 9,000 person population will quadruple in the next decade).

This is one thing about the USA that I like. In history, if there are no jobs in a certain region, people have had to go where the work is. In Canada, thanks to an endless string of Liberal governance, the following becomes the norm (and this is a fact): when cod fishing died out in Newfoundland, the sales of Bombardier snowmobiles went UP among people in Newfoundland. Why? When there's no work, the government doesn't encourage relocation, it pays people to stay where they are.

Finally, as a citizen of the Edmonton area, I must say I'm much more in tune with the political attitude of the city of Calgary. Much more conservative and understanding of Klein in general. Too many people in this city are supporters of that god-awful Kevin Taft or Brian Mason (who I actually have some degree of respect for). Calgarians, or the majority, seem to share my opinion. As a student supporter of Klein, I was a definite oddball around campus before I graduated.