Kerry Fraser's reply to my Gaudreau empty net question

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I know everyone likes to blame Wideman but I wonder if it's deeper than that. The Flames publicly disagreed with the suspension and were pretty outspoken throughout the process with comments made by both Treliving and Burke. It's possible the officials have taken that personally and the Flames in their mind have downplayed the severity of the incident.

Since the fiasco the Flames have gone from one of the least penalized team to the most penalized team despite very little in roster turnover (although Tkachuk has certainly added a fair bit but that's somewhat cancelled out by the fact he draws more penalties). I'm not wearing a tin foil hat and am not screaming that its a conspiracy but it certainly appears most nights the Flames are not getting the benefit of the doubt when it comes to penalty calls as Wednesday was garbage officiating and it seems we have seen more of that this season than years past.

I think you make a good point. If there are lingering feelings, it will have much more to do with both Wideman and Flames brass reaction to the whole event, than what actually happened. They were quick to support their player but I had always assumed there was some behind the scenes sincere apologies from Wideman and the organization to the officials. Maybe not.

That said, there has also been a whole turnover in coaching staff and playing style. It would be foolish to think that doesn't have some impact on penalties.

In any case, Flames need to figure this out.

[puffnstuff]

What are the stats for Flames opponents? Are they getting less penalties called against them, om average, when they play the Flames?

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I think you make a good point. If there are lingering feelings, it will have much more to do with both Wideman and Flames brass reaction to the whole event, than what actually happened. They were quick to support their player but I had always assumed there was some behind the scenes sincere apologies from Wideman and the organization to the officials. Maybe not.

That said, there has also been a whole turnover in coaching staff and playing style. It would be foolish to think that doesn't have some impact on penalties.

In any case, Flames need to figure this out.

I know the private and public personas are different but I can imagine Burke may not have been terribly diplomatic behind the scenes.

[Coach]

It's not a conspiracy. It's league wide. No one knows what the rules are anymore.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by MattyC

It's not a conspiracy. It's league wide. No one knows what the rules are anymore.

Yeah, pretty much. As long as officials make it seem randomly arbitrary throughout the league with missed and phantom calls, who can say whether anything was done on purpose out of spite or just by mistake.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by MattyC

It's not a conspiracy. It's league wide. No one knows what the rules are anymore.

Actually, about half the teams had their time-shorthanded per game drop from last year so far, and it's been trending down in general for the past 5-6 years.

Columbus has been the biggest drop at 0.60 TSPG
Calgary has been the biggest gain at 0.87 TSPG

The next closest gains were Colorado at 0.70 and Washington at 0.52.

Most teams are within 0.30 of last year's totals.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Actually, about half the teams had their time-shorthanded per game drop from last year so far, and it's been trending down in general for the past 5-6 years.

Columbus has been the biggest drop at 0.60 TSPG
Calgary has been the biggest gain at 0.87 TSPG

The next closest gains were Colorado at 0.70 and Washington at 0.52.

Most teams are within 0.30 of last year's totals.

I'm not saying there are more or less penalties.

I'm saying no one knows the difference anymore. It actually doesn't surprise me everything is relatively even. "Evening" the game seems to be the refs primary goal, which is ridiculous.

What's a penalty shot in one game is a good defensive play in another.

What's a suspendable hit depends on name and how much outcry about it there is.

Hacking a players hands is fine, but putting a one-handed stick on their hip is hooking.

Nothing makes sense.

[powderjunkie]

Bit of a tangent, and it's more related to the Devils game than Sharks, but one thing I've always found odd about hockey is that taking a penalty is irrelevant in the last 10 seconds of a game (defending team can hack away at will to prevent a scoring chance, and put themselves in faceoff; they will only suffer 10-15 seconds of their penalty).

We still seem to end up with enough decent scoring chances in the dying seconds of a game, so this is probably a solution looking for a problem, but curious what people think of a few radical ideas:

1. Go to a soccer/football style clock, where the games is not necessarily over at 0:00, but the next stoppage of play (or perhaps once the defending team gains possession of the puck past their own blue line - another rule change I'd be interested in on delayed penalty calls)
2. Any penalty that takes away a scoring chance in the last 30/60 seconds of the game results in a penalty shot (probably too subjective and refs would leave their whistles in their pocket to not 'decide the game')
3. Penalties are called as regular, but the game doesn't end until the penalty is fully served (not applicable in tie games or when the leading team is on the power play)

I suppose this counters the idea of 'deciding the game in regulation', though I would think the rule would apply to OT as well (to prevent shootouts). Just musing out loud...I only actually like idea #1.

[Stupid]

Hockey could take a page out of football(/soccer)'s reffing guidelines. Penalty is a penalty no matter who makes it or what the score is. I'm sure they (soccer refs) also watch the situation a bit, but much less so than in hockey.

Not saying they don't get it wrong - trust me on this one - but at least this is the direction they need to head in in my opinion.

This is the one thing that bothers me the most. The league should create a level playing field; right now it is way too easy to create ambiguity and this is the result. Conspiracy theories and other plots are very much on fans' minds.

[Mr.Coffee]

I'm sure Gaudreau whining every second doesn't help either.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

I'm sure Gaudreau whining every second doesn't help either.

It shouldn't matter.

The fact that it does shows the refs inability to be objective at all.

[Yrebmi]

Originally Posted by puffnstuff

What are the stats for Flames opponents? Are they getting less penalties called against them, om average, when they play the Flames?

I looked into it.*
If my calculations are correct the Flames have been penalized 205 times to their opponents 182 times. Works out to about one extra penalty every 2 games.

Stats that stick out.
ARI penalized 5 more than us over 4 games
CHI penalized 7 more than us over 3 games
November 27th against the Flyers was pretty harsh

*Excluding Fighting majors, and subject to human error in my counting.

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Bit of a tangent, and it's more related to the Devils game than Sharks, but one thing I've always found odd about hockey is that taking a penalty is irrelevant in the last 10 seconds of a game (defending team can hack away at will to prevent a scoring chance, and put themselves in faceoff; they will only suffer 10-15 seconds of their penalty).

We still seem to end up with enough decent scoring chances in the dying seconds of a game, so this is probably a solution looking for a problem, but curious what people think of a few radical ideas:

1. Go to a soccer/football style clock, where the games is not necessarily over at 0:00, but the next stoppage of play (or perhaps once the defending team gains possession of the puck past their own blue line - another rule change I'd be interested in on delayed penalty calls)
2. Any penalty that takes away a scoring chance in the last 30/60 seconds of the game results in a penalty shot (probably too subjective and refs would leave their whistles in their pocket to not 'decide the game')
3. Penalties are called as regular, but the game doesn't end until the penalty is fully served (not applicable in tie games or when the leading team is on the power play)

I suppose this counters the idea of 'deciding the game in regulation', though I would think the rule would apply to OT as well (to prevent shootouts). Just musing out loud...I only actually like idea #1.

I don't like your first and second proposals (especially 2 but I can tell you had some reservations about it as well). However #3 is a gem and should be looked at.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by MattyC

It shouldn't matter.

The fact that it does shows the refs inability to be objective at all.

Of course referees aren't objective.
They never have been. They never will be.

[Vulcan]

One thing I've noticed, if you have a good PK, taking a penalty by the defending team in the last two minutes enables that team to ice the puck and run out the clock more easily.

[thefoss1957]

Back when Mike Cvik (a linesman) retired, he was asked if he regretted not being a referee. His answer was telling, "I see calls, too much, as black and white, to be a referee." His point, apparently, is that he wanted to enforce 100% of the rules, not, "manage the game."

If the NHL wants to increase scoring in the league, as they bleat about yearly, one sure method would be for them to require referees to enforce the damn rule book in its entirety from opening puck drop to the final horn. This would a. increase PP opportunities and/or b. decrease scoring opportunities denied by cynical actions by defenders, KNOWING, that the refs will be hesitant to "affect the outcome." I agree with Cvik, a call should be a call, in the 1st period, OR in the 3rd OT of a SCF.

The half-measure BS, as on the EN chance call, of finding reasons to keep St. Joe in the game by awarding PIMs instead of applying the full rule, is unacceptable for a professional league. (as is the cop-out, that is becoming prevalent, calling "embellishment" on late penalties to "even things out".)

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by thefoss1957

Back when Mike Cvik (a linesman) retired, he was asked if he regretted not being a referee. His answer was telling, "I see calls, too much, as black and white, to be a referee." His point, apparently, is that he wanted to enforce 100% of the rules, not, "manage the game."

If the NHL wants to increase scoring in the league, as they bleat about yearly, on e sure method would be for them to require referees to enforce the damn rule book in its entirety from opening puck drop to the final horn. This would a. increase PP opportunities and/or b. decrease scoring opportunities denied by cynical actions by defenders, KNOWING, that the refs will be hesitant to "affect the outcome." I agree with Cvik, a call should be a call, in the 1st period, OR in the 3rd OT of a SCF.

The half-measure BS, as on the EN chance call, of finding reasons to keep St. Joe in the game by awarding PIMs instead of applying the full rule, is unacceptable for a professional league. (as is the cop-out, that is becoming prevalent, calling "embellishment" on late penalties to "even things out".)

Yup. It would be a much better game if the rule book dictated penalties, instead of the refs 'managing the game' with judgement calls.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Yup. It would be a much better game if the rule book dictated penalties, instead of the refs 'managing the game' with judgement calls.

You don't see game management in any other pro sport, unless maybe NBA? Not familiar enough with it to say, but for sure MLB calls it strictly by the rules and outside of certain QB's, the NFL calls it by the rules.
Game management sucks

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Yup. It would be a much better game if the rule book dictated penalties, instead of the refs 'managing the game' with judgement calls.

This has been an issue with the NHL forever. Like them putting away the rule book in overtime to "let them play". This is why I favour getting a lot of the old boys club out of NHL offices as too much of the business is based on nostalgia and old players that think the way it used to be played should still be applied today. Colin Campbell for example is everything wrong with NHL management.

[squiggs96]

Originally Posted by Clarkey

It should only be a goal if it goes past the goal line, with the net on and play still on.

So with an unoccupied net, and a player hauled down from behind while on a clear breakaway, you wouldn't award him the goal? The team that just had the penalty called on them isn't allowed to put a goaltender in for the penalty shot. Why would you make the guy skate towards an empty net, and shoot it in? All that does is waste everyone's time. Award the goal, and drop the puck at centre.