Burke coming up on FAN960

[Henry Fool]

Originally Posted by Bingo

you know that's fair

but man I get tired of over reacting hockey fans, especially ones that get livid if you don't join them in losing it.

so better terminology ...

you don't ask a hockey executive in November about a coaching staff that they went through a process to hire 14 games ago. It will get you an angry response and hurt the credibility of the person asking it.

You're probably right about that part. Maybe there's a way to phrase the question in a way that's not too offensive to the executive, but all you're ever going to get in response is an expression of full support for the coaching staff. Things could be much worse and Burke would still never say anything bad about the coaches.

My view is that if the coach plays a meaningful role on the team, it follows that he also bears his share of responsibility for bad results, even if it's still early. Who knows where to draw the line. At least it's always going to be a discussion when things don't go well.

Even the "panicking" fans know that it's still early. I do think their sense of urgency is in a way appropriate. I too feel like it's time to start climbing out of mediocrity or might not happen at all.

[PepsiFree]

Don't forgot how the top players couldn't possibly just be in a bad stretch, they must be significantly worse than they've ever shown to be and not capable of being top players at all. How easily we were fooled over the years we grew to believe we had talented players. These 14 games have truly revealed all.

[killer_carlson]

I think it is perfectly acceptable for fans to be frustrated.

Some feel the season is already lost, that this group squandered the easy start to the schedule and it's unlikely to see the win % occur the rest of the way out.

Others think we should wait more games to determine. Some think 20. Some think US Thanksgiving and others think it's until we're officially eliminated.

But people are allowed to be frustrated and are allowed to point the finger at what they believe the cause is.

[Timbo]

Give it another 14 games then we can see if it is emotional overreacting or foreshadowing.

As for asking Burke the hard tough questions, I have nothing against any member of the media if they present it logicallly and backed up with reason.

[LTH]

GG is here for at least a year and a half. They'll give him the start ofrom next year before they consider a different direction. Of course Burke isn't going to say anything negative of the coach. He will fully support him until he fires him.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by LTH

GG is here for at least a year and a half. They'll give him the start ofrom next year before they consider a different direction. Of course Burke isn't going to say anything negative of the coach. He will fully support him until he fires him.

That would require Gully to earn a contract extension, as he's on a 1 year deal. If the team finishes bottom 5, how could they possibly justify extending Gully?

[Poe969]

I don't want to over react but it's funny that after 5 games, some are saying that "it's only 5 games...give it time" then "it's only 10 games, give it time" now it's "it's only 14 games, give it time"

At what point is it enough time and too much for a bad team to come back from? When should changes be made with enough time for it to matter? If you wait too long to make changes and the season is lost by then, is it the changes that influence the team or is it that the games don't matter? Is putting up with things now just as bad as tanking at the end of the season? By not making changes now, aren't they accepting a losing culture?

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

I think it is perfectly acceptable for fans to be frustrated.

But people are allowed to be frustrated and are allowed to point the finger at what they believe the cause is.

Agree 100% but said fans should also realise that those that don't agree with them aren't "bought" or "yes men" or "company men" as was suggested.

I wouldn't even say it's not coaching, I think there have been mistakes which I'd expect from a younger coach getting his second kick at the cat with a new group.

But I really see execution of the team's top players as paramount in this team's problems right now.

Gaudreau is a great example. 95% of what makes Gaudreau "Johnny Hockey" is the innate ability to create which isn't coached at all. I don't think Dave Cameron is taking him aside and telling him how to button hook away from traffic or mix up his edges through the neutral zone to fool defensemen. The guy is coaching on a break out, positioning in his own zone, and who to pick up on the back check.

Coughing the puck up, not using his teammates, turning it over with bobbles on his stick is 100% on the player and he'd be the first to tell you that.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Poe969

I don't want to over react but it's funny that after 5 games, some are saying that "it's only 5 games...give it time" then "it's only 10 games, give it time" now it's "it's only 14 games, give it time"

At what point is it enough time and too much for a bad team to come back from? When should changes be made with enough time for it to matter? If you wait too long to make changes and the season is lost by then, is it the changes that influence the team or is it that the games don't matter? Is putting up with things now just as bad as tanking at the end of the season? By not making changes now, aren't they accepting a losing culture?

That all depends on what your expectations were this season.

From my vantage point this is a 24th place team from 2015-16 with a really young core that got younger with Tkachuk. Being under .500 at this point doesn't come as a shock to me at all, it's another rebuild year. I thought they'd be better, I still think they'll be better but my expectations for the season certainly tell me you don't

a) fire a coach after 14 games when you had a pretty heralded "process" to bring him in

or

b) make the other GMs day by panicking and moving players in the bottom of a swoon instead of seeing the big picture

lucking these guys don't seem the type to over react in such a way

[442scotty]

"The ability to create". You hit the nail on the head for a lot of the power play problems ... What we don't know is whether it's a lack of talent or just players getting used to new systems... Time will tell...

Stockton seems to be doing just fine right now with the system.. Is this because the system is good or is the talent level higher than the opposition ...

[Locke]

Man, I hate all of the 'Chicken Little' haters. You dont like people complaining that the team sucks right now? Points now are just as valuable as points later, the fact of the matter is that the NHL is a marathon, not a sprint.

Marathons are defined by a consistent pace, all these losses means that later this team is going to have to sprint and the odds are that they wont be able to do it.

And even if they do, it sets them up poorly.

I think there is justification in being disappointed, this team has been disappointing. Even if they turn it around, barring it being miraculous, it is rapidly approaching the point where it would be too little, too late.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I thought they'd be better, I still think they'll be better but my expectations for the season certainly tell me you don't

a) fire a coach after 14 games when you had a pretty heralded "process" to bring him in

I don't really believe what management was telling us this summer about the coaching hiring and the process. I think their process fell apart and they were left in an unfavourable position. What we heard from management was just pumping the tires. If they believed that Gulutzan was the coach of the future he wouldn't be here on a one year contract (as has been rumoured.) He is just filling the seat at this point and keeping it warm for the next guy. That guy might not be available right now but Gulutzan has no job security at this point.

[jlh2640]

Its time to let Brodie and Hamilton play together if Brodie is going to play left side. Gio can carry Wideman or Kulak. Let Engelland play with Jokipakka. No more Grossman

[SuperMatt18]

The positives for me are that when this team has actually played good they looked better than they have at any point over the last two seasons.

Consistency, and execution have been the issues. Not the system - because when they actually move their feet and execute the system looks good.

The biggest "coaching" problem for me so far has been the PK and the PP. No team is going to win very many games when they only have 4 PP goals for, and 16 PP goals against.

Pretty much have started every game this season down 1-0 because of our terrible special teams.

[cannon7]

Would like to see guys get sent to the press box for a game or three -- if it didn't mean playing guys like Grossman or Wideman in their place. Lots of good things happening in Stockton...

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

I don't really believe what management was telling us this summer about the coaching hiring and the process. I think their process fell apart and they were left in an unfavourable position. What we heard from management was just pumping the tires. If they believed that Gulutzan was the coach of the future he wouldn't be here on a one year contract (as has been rumoured.) He is just filling the seat at this point and keeping it warm for the next guy. That guy might not be available right now but Gulutzan has no job security at this point.

You believe this based on what, exactly?

I'm not being facetious, I really want to know. I haven't heard anything about the process falling apart or the one year contract.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

I don't really believe what management was telling us this summer about the coaching hiring and the process. I think their process fell apart and they were left in an unfavourable position. What we heard from management was just pumping the tires. If they believed that Gulutzan was the coach of the future he wouldn't be here on a one year contract (as has been rumoured.) He is just filling the seat at this point and keeping it warm for the next guy. That guy might not be available right now but Gulutzan has no job security at this point.

I hadn't heard that. If that's the case I'd be very surprised though. Bold move by Gulutzan to leave a job in Vancouver for a one year deal.

When Willie walks he could have been the guy, though I guess an equal argument could be made that he'd get gassed with Willie as well.

Where did this rumour come from?

[belsarius]

Originally Posted by Bingo

It's November 7th today. That month is pretty close to October. Hell Haynes even listed out the average turnaround for new coaches is at 18 games over the past several years.

This is so true, and fan getting a taste of the system working I think gave the false impression that the learning period was over. The road games against St Louis and Chicago were this system played the way it should be. San Jose was also a good indication of what to expect.

But it isn't going to be overnight. What I've been seeing is good portions of games being played properly (not so much in LA) but then small breakdowns happens and the players are reverting to old habits. The Cogliano goal last night was the defense activating too much and relying on Gaudreau to backcheck, which he made a great attempt at, but a breakdown because they were not the 5 man puck control system GG wants.

When a goal goes bad or they are down and pushing you see Gaudreau trying everything alone, you see defensemen taking too many chances and you see guys trying to give breakout passes to players not expecting them.

After the Haynes article I decided to give them their 20 games, and yes I got some faint hope with a few great road games and thought the learning time was over, but it's not a magic wand and will take time. Brodie has picked up his game since being moved back with Giordano, Johnny and Monahan looked real good in the first period last night but they have to learn to play that way the entire game and get out of the habits of playing it alone. Once our top players can figure that out it should all come together, and yes that might be 10-15 more games.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I don't think most think the coaching staff is the question of the day. When you're top players aren't playing well it's not the coach ... and I would think Burke would be pretty qualified to land at that assessment on his own.

Good on the morning crew for not lofting stupid questions.

One questions should have been asked.


Why Grossman?

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Poe969

I don't want to over react but it's funny that after 5 games, some are saying that "it's only 5 games...give it time" then "it's only 10 games, give it time" now it's "it's only 14 games, give it time"

At what point is it enough time and too much for a bad team to come back from? When should changes be made with enough time for it to matter? If you wait too long to make changes and the season is lost by then, is it the changes that influence the team or is it that the games don't matter? Is putting up with things now just as bad as tanking at the end of the season? By not making changes now, aren't they accepting a losing culture?

Sometimes the best course of action is to not make any changes at all in spite of the poor results. This is one of those times in which—for better or worse—the Flames just need to ride this out. It could turn into a bad year and a lost season, but this could also then result in the team being better in the long run for it two, three, four years down the road.