Defensive pairings, how should we feel.

[ResAlien]

Why not, let's give it a shot. It's worth having faith in the new coach before we go full "glass half empty oh my god the glass is filled with knife shaped poison bees oh god have mercy they're eating my eyes oh god my eyes".

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by ResAlien

Why not

Because even Helen Keller could see this is a bad idea.

[Buff]

If I were the coach I wouldn't use those combinations unless I'm trying something new to get the team going. However, I can see what he is trying to do. He wants to keep Gio and Brodie separated so he can have is #1 and #1a defensemen on the ice as much as possible, instead of both at the same time.

Putting Hamilton with one of them would make sense, but then you would have to put one of your bottom pairing defensemen on their offside. Brodie has done it before, and it wasn't a failed experiment so it makes better sense to put one of your better defenseman, who was proven to do decent on his off-side than one of your lesser performing commodities on their off-side where they are more likely to be a disaster.

How is he going to dish out even ice time for Gio, Brodie and Hamilton? Probably double shifting. You would have to be insane to think that Wideman can handle a full season with top pairing minutes. He won't. Brodie will double shift on that spot. Hamilton may also get a trial in that spot for an extra shift here and there. Then there is PP time for all three too.

We have to see how Gulutzan will work all three pairings in a game before we can determine that it will be a failure, no matter how sceptical we are.

[Frank MetaMusil]

Originally Posted by neo45

I don't think it is overreacting at all to be absolutely terrified that our new coaching staff thinks that this is a good idea.

I'm holding out offering up my opinion on Gulutzan's results until the 10 game mark. I don't have high expectations honestly.

You're right that it's a bit unsettling though. The last time the Flames tightened up defensively and used pairings like this it failed miserably. I still think Wideman today is better than Chris Butler ever was though.

[Parallex]

He has eight defensemen at his disposal and he's dressing the three worst. Worse he's doing it in a manner that ensures that one of them will be on the ice most of the game.

... no, this isn't a "let's see if it works" situation, this is a painfully obvious bad call on the face of it.

[Poe969]

I like them. A lot. I think Wideman and Engelland are actually going to impress a lot of people this year.

[united]

While the forward lines look pretty good, the defensive pairings don't give much confidence.

Giordano-Brodie are arguably the best pairing in the League...why split them up?
Brodie prefers playing on the right - somewhat rare for a defenceman indeed - why shift him to his uncomfortable side?
Brodie-Engelland were awful together. It's a feel good story saying they performed well once Gio went down - they certainly put in an admirable effort - but they were objectively terrible.
Wideman is rapidly losing pace and agility while the NHL is rapidly getting quicker. Cannot have him on the top pairing.
Hamilton is a bonafide top three, bordering on top two defenceman. How on Earth is he on the third pairing.
Grossman being played at all is perhaps the biggest head scratcher.

Hopefully it's some sort of decoy for a couple shifts before returning to pairings that make sense.

[neo45]

McDavid is going to love these pairings. Someone to beat wide, on the ice at all times.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Buff

If I were the coach I wouldn't use those combinations unless I'm trying something new to get the team going. However, I can see what he is trying to do. He wants to keep Gio and Brodie separated so he can have is #1 and #1a defensemen on the ice as much as possible, instead of both at the same time.

Putting Hamilton with one of them would make sense, but then you would have to put one of your bottom pairing defensemen on their offside. Brodie has done it before, and it wasn't a failed experiment so it makes better sense to put one of your better defenseman, who was proven to do decent on his off-side than one of your lesser performing commodities on their off-side where they are more likely to be a disaster.

How is he going to dish out even ice time for Gio, Brodie and Hamilton? Probably double shifting. You would have to be insane to think that Wideman can handle a full season with top pairing minutes. He won't. Brodie will double shift on that spot. Hamilton may also get a trial in that spot for an extra shift here and there. Then there is PP time for all three too.

We have to see how Gulutzan will work all three pairings in a game before we can determine that it will be a failure, no matter how sceptical we are.

Last year both Gio and Brodie played poorly (for them) when paired with Hamilton.

Gulutzan might be bringing a different view of the skill level of the Flames as last year he would have been looking on how best to attack the Flames. Hamilton might be an easier target than Wideman.

As for TOI Wideman almost always handles big minutes. Hamilton has had 1 year (out of 4) where he over 20 minutes --2014-15 he played 21:10 that was forced on Boston with Boychuck leaving and Chara being hurt.

In 2014-15 where Hamilton made his big impression he had 4 games where he played more than 24 minutes.

In Hamilton's last year in Boston he was paired with Chara 57% and Siedenberg 25 % of the time. Chara came back and had a better year last year paired with Kevan Miller and Zach Trotman.

I don't think that Hamilton, as talented as he is, is easy to play with

[Strange Brew]

Doesn't GG know it's better to be twice as good for half as long, than half as good for twice as long?

[JerryUnderscore]

Treliving mentioned that he doesn't expect to have 8 D for very long. But that would be easily solved if he sent Kulak down. It would also get Kulak playing games rather than sitting in the press box.

So unless Kulak is up for salary purposes (which we would have seen by putting Smid on LTIR already) the only thing I can think is that they're hoping/planning to trade Engelland and/or Wideman and they want to showcase both.

The best way to do that is by playing them with Gio and Brodie for a couple games.

[GranteedEV]

Some pairing stats over the last three years. Obviously results are influenced by things like systems, forwards, shooting luck, and goaltending, but we do have some sample of Brodie-Engelland and Giordano-Wideman to look at (italicized)...:




Russell-Wideman is looking like a godsend about now.

[SuperMatt18]

Think one big thing that really stands out in that chart is just how buried with tough starts the Brodie - Engelland pairing was.

Corsi For and against looks bad but they were getting completely buried with d-zone starts. Would be interesting to see how that pairing performs with a more balanced utlization.

[DJones]

Brodie - Engellends numbers aren't that bad actually.

But wow are Giordano's and Wideman's terrible. Did not expect that.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Think one big thing that really stands out in that chart is just how buried with tough starts the Brodie - Engelland pairing was.

Corsi For and against looks bad but they were getting completely buried with d-zone starts. Would be interesting to see how that pairing performs with a more balanced utlization.

Maybe. Let's explore. Adjusting for zone starts by removing the first ten seconds after faceoffs, we get

Engelland-Brodie
321:47 TOI
1.49 GF
1.68 GA
47.1 GF%
43.07 CF60
69.18 CA60
38.4 CF%

That methodology isn't especially favorable to them for Corsi but does help their goals against pretty notably.

We can also look at adjusting for score, venue, and zone starts with Corsica.Hockey's more complicated methodology, we get

Engelland-Brodie
536.66 TOI (* I think this includes the 2015 playoffs though. I couldn't filter out regular season only to be consistent with all of Puckalytics' stats.)

Shot Attempts
46.38 CF60
65.51 CA60
41.45 CF%
-6.09 Rel.CF%

Expected Goals (factors in shot type / shot distance / shot angle)
1.9 xGF60
2.55 xGA60
42.7 xGF%
-5.44 Rel.xGF%

Goals
1.57 GF60
2.13 GA60
42.46 GF%
-12.95 Rel.GF%

[PsYcNeT]

I'm glad the sky is falling and we haven't even played one game yet.

[Gaudreauvertime]

Originally Posted by DJones

Brodie - Engellends numbers aren't that bad actually.

But wow are Giordano's and Wideman's terrible. Did not expect that.

I'm fine with Brodie - Engelland. Giordano - Wideman never has looked good. Both guys are shoot first dmen who like to pinch. Seems like they are always giving up high scoring chance opportunities.

I think I'd prefer something like:

Brodie - Grossman
Giordano - Engelland
Hamilton - Wideman
Kevin

Gives you a stay at home presence in each of your 2 top pairs, giving them the flexibility to jump up in the play. Then insulate the 3rd pairing.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Gaudreauvertime

I think I'd prefer something like:

Brodie - Grossman
Giordano - Engelland
Hamilton - Wideman
Kevin

Gives you a stay at home presence in each of your 2 top pairs, giving them the flexibility to jump up in the play. Then insulate the 3rd pairing.

It's not 2004. The red line does not slow opponents down for you.

[Gaudreauvertime]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

It's not 2004. The red line does not slow opponents down for you.

Well I'm all for changing up something. Gio and Brodie don't have to play together. It's not like they were great last year.

People like to blame goaltending for last year's struggles (and of course it was awful, especially Hiller). But that doesn't mean that our defenseman weren't poor defensively. Defensively, Giordano was pretty terrible in the first half of the year, Hamilton was bad most of the year, and Brodie had a tough finish. We allowed a TON of grade A scoring chances. Even the best goalies would have struggled to an extent in front of the team and system we iced last year.

Which is why I'm fine with shaking things up.

[swo2k1]