Who is better at drafting - Darryl Sutter, or a hat?

[Buster]

I would say he was the most under-performing GM at the 2003 draft, as well.

[calgarywinning]

I would say if we could combine posts of Five Hole and Cole436 we would have the perfect description of the Jokinen trade, except in reverse order. Cole436 describes all the excitement and hope we had with Jokinen being acquired and Five Hole describes the reality of what happened.

It's like talking about Ortio and Ramo. Neither was a good decision. Glad we can move on. We could argue the finesse if something came of it maybe, but it didn't.

So back to the topic of the thread, good GM's make long-lasting decisions for the franchise.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Freeway

The one Sutter story I can recall from his years as a GM, and I forget who originally told me this: the Flames drafted Matt Pelech in 2005 because Darryl wanted a replacement for Rhett Warrener in the pipeline.

Feaster told a story like that at a STH event I went to one year (I believe it was 2013 because I think it was in reference to the Jankowski pick).

He was talking about the change in draft philosophy over the years and how their focus is on drafting the best player available regardless of current team need. They get the list in order and then pick the best available player from the list.

He mentioned that originally under Darryl, different spots in the Draft were assigned to certain positions or roles. He didn't say which player it was, but he did say that one year, Darryl had assigned a certain spot on the draft list to a Rhett Warrener replacement.

The way he told the story, it didn't sound like it was a first rounder. I thought it sounded like it might have been Aulie, but it may have been Pelech.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

The worst asset management in Flames history? Really?
How about Marc Savard as a starting point.

Followed just how closely if at all by Martin St. Louis?

[JD]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Followed just how closely if at all by Martin St. Louis?

In terms of asset management, that one is horrible in hindsight, but very few people even blinked their eyes. It was a smallish AHL-tweener getting dumped. I doubt anyone suspected it was letting go a future scoring champion Hart Trophy winner who would score the dagger goal against us in a Stanley Cup winning scenario.

But the day the Marc Savard fiasco culminated in that trade, almost everyone was breathing fire, they were so mad at the outcome and how badly the process was mismanaged.

[FlamesAddiction]

I thought I recall reading back then that Sutter was only really involved in the 1st round and after that he let the scouts decide who to pick.

I'm not sure that exonerates him from being responsible, but I think it was a combination of bad management and bad scouting.

[FireGilbert]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

The worst asset management in Flames history? Really?
How about Marc Savard as a starting point.

Of course I didn't forget about Savard, he is second worst. Cammy is tops because he was lost for nothing not once but twice.

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Followed just how closely if at all by Martin St. Louis?

You can't count St. Louis. He was acquired for nothing then lost for nothing. Also there were 29 teams in the league that had a chance to sign him so it's not like the Flames were alone in not seeing the potential.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by Five-hole

He also made some of the worst:

Phaneuf
Jokinen
Jokinen v2
Wayne Primeau
Brad Stuart
Stralman for a 3rd
Lydman for a 3rd

Wasn't a fan of the Phaneuf trade but other than that those trades are all pretty minor. They all pale in comparison to landing guys like Kipper, Cammalleri, Tangauy, Langkow, Huselius, Bourque who all had career years as Flames. Also made some solid smaller moves like Reinprecht, Ference, Donovan, Nilson, Nieminen. His good moves far outweigh his bad moves. People have short memories and its a what have you done for me lately business.

[IgiTang]

This thread is depressing...

Someone post our current roster and prospects to make everyone feel better.

[Robbob]

Would have loved to have been a fly on the wall during the draft meeting back then. I kind of get the sense that for the first founder Sutter may have had more of an influence but deferred the later portions of the draft to the scouting staff. Would make sense as to why Button is still around.

[Bingo]

I'm about a month into a really interesting look at teams and their GMs for draft history. Tendencies, results, rankings. Should be an interesting look at the last 36 years when I'm done.

[Five-hole]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Wasn't a fan of the Phaneuf trade but other than that those trades are all pretty minor. They all pale in comparison to landing guys like Kipper, Cammalleri, Tangauy, Langkow, Huselius, Bourque who all had career years as Flames. Also made some solid smaller moves like Reinprecht, Ference, Donovan, Nilson, Nieminen. His good moves far outweigh his bad moves. People have short memories and its a what have you done for me lately business.

Sutter's moves had one thing in common: what can you do for me right now? Almost every single one of those trades involved getting older. Was Bourque worth a 2nd? Sure. Was Nilson worth a 2nd? Maybe. Did we have to get rid of Wayne Primeau because of the cap? Sure, but we shouldn't have had him in the first place. Was it worth a 2nd to do it? Nope. Was Steve Staios worth a 3rd? Doubtful.

Slowly, steadily, as these players age and you have absolutely no depth on the farm, your team turns into exactly what we had from 2010-2013. Window closed, old, expensive, and no youth coming up.

Darryl systematically overvalued "post-apex" players and systematically undervalued youth and draft picks. Yeah, he made a few great trades. He also made a few disastrous trades. Most of them were somewhere in the middle. On the whole, I would argue his tenure disclosed a series of moves that steadily leaked value and aged the franchise. Coupled with a failure to recognize that the team was inherently flawed, this precipitated a bottoming-out that we're just climbing out of now.

In my mind, good general managers always add value and youth, until the time is right to "sprint". Only then can you afford to make the kind of moves Darryl made pretty much exclusively, and you make them to try to win a cup. You don't make these moves to try to make the playoffs.

[TheScorpion]

Gilmour was the worst asset management in Flame history, easily.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Brodie, Backlund, Ferland, Bouma all players on the current team that he drafted. Definitely not great but not horrible considering he didn't draft inside the top 20 from 2004-2010

Which is a great point. Looking at it from today's perspective makes zero sense. If his mandate had been to rebuild the team and stockpile picks, we probably would have seen a much more conservative approach the last few years he was here. Not only was he GM primarily in an era where drafting was not as big of an emphasis as it has been more recently, but he was also under the gun to continue to compete each and every year.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Gilmour was the worst asset management in Flame history, easily.

I would argue Marc Savard for that title to be honest. The organization chose coach over player (and a bad coach to boot) and lost big time. Especially considering the ongoing need for a top line center that the franchise spent over a decade chasing afterwards.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Gilmour was the worst asset management in Flame history, easily.

I blame him for quitting on his team. Dink.

[mikeecho]

Originally Posted by Mister Yamoto

When Darryl Sutter got here the Flames had the smallest scouting staff in the NHL and they didn't even have an AHL team

By the accounts I have heard, that small scouting staff preferred to get Darryl's opinion on a player before they gave their opinion on that player so they could save the time being told they were wrong.

[GioforPM]

Ummm - why not have both - Darryl Sutter in a hat?

[bob-loblaw]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Ummm - why not have both - Darryl Sutter in a hat?

We need to make some captions for this. Darryl - 'Have I ever told you about the Cockshutt we had on the farm?' Paul - 'My hat drafts better than your hat.'

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

I blame him for quitting on his team. Dink.

He did quit. But that trade...