Where do you see the Flames rebuild at now?

[ricardodw]

I had much higher expectations last season.. added Hamilton, Frolik, Bennett and Gio to a playoff team without losing anyone (Schlemko, Diaz and Byron).

This year replaced Hiller with Elliot who was a very good goalie on a Hitchcock coached team. However looking at Goalies records 2014-15
Hiller 26-19-4 2.36 GA .918 sv %
Elliot 26-14-3 2.26 GA .917 sv%

If the Flames made a trade Hiller for Elliot in July 2015 the Flames expectations of a successful 2015-16 season would not have changed at all.

The rebuild is over . A rebuilding team has Cap space waiting to take on a cap problem, like the Flames did last year with Hamilton.

The Flames will have as much long term salary (4+ years) tied up as any team in the league. What we see is what we get. Counting on development, hoping for no regression and better coaching.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

I had much higher expectations last season.. added Hamilton, Frolik, Bennett and Gio to a playoff team without losing anyone (Schlemko, Diaz and Byron).

This year replaced Hiller with Elliot who was a very good goalie on a Hitchcock coached team. However looking at Goalies records 2014-15
Hiller 26-19-4 2.36 GA .918 sv %
Elliot 26-14-3 2.26 GA .917 sv%

If the Flames made a trade Hiller for Elliot in July 2015 the Flames expectations of a successful 2015-16 season would not have changed at all.

The rebuild is over . A rebuilding team has Cap space waiting to take on a cap problem, like the Flames did last year with Hamilton.

The Flames will have as much long term salary (4+ years) tied up as any team in the league. What we see is what we get. Counting on development, hoping for no regression and better coaching.

Are there any other criteria for rebuilding other than cap space?

And as to the second part in bold, do you really think nothing else can be done but sit back and "hope"?

[heep223]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

To take the next step, a lot of players need to get better. And the team will need to learn how to keep the puck out of its net. I expect the Flames to struggle out of the gate with a new coach and system. I see them in the mix for a playoff spot, but not a lock by any stretch of the imagination.

Re: learning how to keep the puck out of the net, with a league average save percentage last season the team's goal differential was right up there with most playoff teams.

Hopefully that has been addressed.

[Bingo]

I think the rebuild is getting the pieces in place but then you just don't know how long it takes before the team is contending.

With Monahan and Bennett core down the middle and Backlund an excellent support player they are build at center, which is huge.

With three top four defensemen they are set on the blueline for core players, but need their key support defenseman (have plenty on the way)

In goal they have Elliot to hold the fort, but need one of their young guys ready in three years (may need another plug if Elliot walks)

On the wings they have Tkachuk as a core player (hoping) and a great complimentary player in Frolik but they are likely a core player and a complimentary player short.

So to me the key is developing those four players ...

1. Core winger
2. complimentary winger
3. complimentary dman
4. core goaltender

do that and they are built.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by the2bears

Are there any other criteria for rebuilding other than cap space?

And as to the second part in bold, do you really think nothing else can be done but sit back and "hope"?

seems to be pretty clear that a team that is spending to within 5% of the cap is not rebuilding.... at that point they are adjusting , reloading.

If a team is spending to the cap it is absolutely crazy (a complete and utter management failure of Lowe-esque proportions)) to say that they are not good enough to compete for a playoff spot.

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The Flames will have around 45M tied up in 7 players up to 2019-20. Monahan, Gaudreau, Brouwer, Frolik, Hamilton, Gio and Brodie.

That leaves 35M for 16 players 30M for 15 if Elliot signs for 5x4

Only so much can be done with 2M players.....

The core 7 are in place for at least the next 4 years and how they do is how well the Flames do.

[Sylvanfan]

They're going to be at a point where the best players are now going to be the highest paid guys. We find out now if these guys are as good as we hope.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

seems to be pretty clear that a team that is spending to within 5% of the cap is not rebuilding.... at that point they are adjusting , reloading.

If a team is spending to the cap it is absolutely crazy (a complete and utter management failure of Lowe-esque proportions)) to say that they are not good enough to compete for a playoff spot.

-----------

The Flames will have around 45M tied up in 7 players up to 2019-20. Monahan, Gaudreau, Brouwer, Frolik, Hamilton, Gio and Brodie.

That leaves 35M for 16 players 30M for 15 if Elliot signs for 5x4

Only so much can be done with 2M players.....

The core 7 are in place for at least the next 4 years and how they do is how well the Flames do.

So the Oilers were only rebuilding for one or two seasons (if that)?

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by the2bears

Are there any other criteria for rebuilding other than cap space?

While you can be not-rebuilding while having cap space, I think if you are at the point where you have virtually zero cap flexibility to the point of buying out the final years of players' deals as was the case with Raymond, it's safe to say rebuilding is not a passable excuse. If you're good, you're good. If you're bad, you're bad. Rebuilding means exactly that - building from the ground up, and that requires cap flexibility. The nature of Brouwer signing - a 31 year old at the beginning of the season - is in stark contrast to the general concept of rebuilding - it's an all-in move.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

We need guys like Engelland, Smid, Bollig off the books. We also need a top 6 forward, either via prospect or trade. We don't have room to go UFA...

This is not a popular opinion, but I believe that the Flames org. sees Engelland in their long-term plans. Of course, his salary for his role is too high at present, but he is not a bad option for a #6/7 defenseman, and I could see him getting a lower-dollar extension next summer.

Like it or not, both management and coaches have consistently loved the guy.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

This is not a popular opinion, but I believe that the Flames org. sees Engelland in their long-term plans. Of course, his salary for his role is too high at present, but he is not a bad option for a #6/7 defenseman, and I could see him getting a lower-dollar extension next summer.

Like it or not, both management and coaches have consistently loved the guy.

That's a very reasonable analysis. Engelland has always been useful, problem is that $3 million is too much to pay for a defenseman who occasionally has a seat in the press box.

For all the good BT has done, he hasn't signed many bottom of the roster players to reasonable contracts. Some are signed to juicy contracts and some have been lost for nothing. This one will be interesting.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

The nature of Brouwer signing - a 31 year old at the beginning of the season - is in stark contrast to the general concept of rebuilding - it's an all-in move.

Not sure I agree on that.

An all in move is moving futures in the form of prospects or a #1 pick for an older player in a top six or top four spot.

Signing a 31 year old complimentary player that you think fits for the next thee or four years isn't adding, but not going all in.

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

I had much higher expectations last season.. added Hamilton, Frolik, Bennett and Gio to a playoff team without losing anyone (Schlemko, Diaz and Byron).

This year replaced Hiller with Elliot who was a very good goalie on a Hitchcock coached team. However looking at Goalies records 2014-15
Hiller 26-19-4 2.36 GA .918 sv %
Elliot 26-14-3 2.26 GA .917 sv%

If the Flames made a trade Hiller for Elliot in July 2015 the Flames expectations of a successful 2015-16 season would not have changed at all.

The rebuild is over . A rebuilding team has Cap space waiting to take on a cap problem, like the Flames did last year with Hamilton.

The Flames will have as much long term salary (4+ years) tied up as any team in the league. What we see is what we get. Counting on development, hoping for no regression and better coaching.

I think, of the three things you are counting on, I would put coaching at the top of the list. I'm still a Hartley fan. I loved the way the team were capable of playing under him, and hope our new coach can duplicate the success we had the year before last.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

This is not a popular opinion, but I believe that the Flames org. sees Engelland in their long-term plans. Of course, his salary for his role is too high at present, but he is not a bad option for a #6/7 defenseman, and I could see him getting a lower-dollar extension next summer.

Like it or not, both management and coaches have consistently loved the guy.

I can live with Engelland as a <950k #7. But he is not the #4 / #5 that Hartley played him as, just as Russell was not the #3 / #4 that Hartley played him as.

I also think with Hamilton and Brodie both playing the right side, we should be looking at a right-shot power play specialist (including Wideman on a cheap deal) as our bottom pair right side D. And I'm vehemently against Engelland ever playing the left side ever again, that was a disaster. Overall the fit is limited.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

If a team is spending to the cap it is absolutely crazy (a complete and utter management failure of Lowe-esque proportions)) to say that they are not good enough to compete for a playoff spot.

I don't quite agree. I do agree that we should be good enough to compete for a playoff spot, but I don't think spending to the cap quite marks the end of the rebuild.

As I posted earlier, I think there's a transition period at the tail end of the rebuild, which is where we're at now.

During the rebuild you end up overpaying players for various reasons. Some because players are not excited to sign for non-playoff teams, others because to some extent you pay players according to their role, and during the rebuild you have guys playing higher in the lineup than they normally would. (Stajan is a prime example of the latter.) We still have a few of those oversized rebuild-era contracts left, and they're eating a disproportionate part of our cap (compared to their current roles).

IMO the rebuild is really done after those rebuild-era contracts run out (or traded out or in the worst case bought out).

As a non-rebuilding playoff team and hopefully a contending team we should be a more attractive place to sign. That should mean more value for the cap that's not tied to core players.

The core 7 are in place for at least the next 4 years and how they do is how well the Flames do.

Obviously mostly yes, but in the cap era contenders generally have core players (or at least very good supporting players) on ELC:s. For example with luck Tkachuk and Pribyl might be impact wingers in the playoffs while on their ELC's.

[Itse]

Plus you can always try to trade players for ones that work better for your team. It's not like you're forced to wait out everyone's contracts.

In short, there's plenty a GM can do to improve a non-rebuilding team.

[Toonage]

nm

[the2bears]

I think a rebuild is a lot more fluid an idea, across a range of stages, than a simply black or white question. I think we've all but moved out of the phase where we sell players for picks, but we're not yet in the "win now mode" where you sell picks for players.

As far as being at the cap, certainly we'll remain very close to the limit. But we also have some "bad" contracts coming off the books soon, and that's money that can be used in a variety of ways. So things are far from being done. I heard the same tune, I think, at the beginning of the year: what you see is what we have. Meanwhile our goalie situation has changed quite dramatically.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Toonage

Let's take this conversation in a slightly different direction. Suppose the Flames make the Stanley Cup finals next season, but lose in 5 or 6 games.

What is the status of the rebuild then? Fluke run? Still in progress? Done? Ready to start adding?

Doesn't really apply if you think the rebuild will be done after this season anyway.

[codynw]

I think they're pretty much done acquiring the core players. Now they need to wait for them to develop, surround them with good complimentary players, and hope for the best.

[Toonage]

Originally Posted by Itse

Doesn't really apply if you think the rebuild will be done after this season anyway.

Fair point