Gay persecution vs. "Anti-religion bigotry" thread

[Minnie]

I read an article earlier today. It was based somewhat around the issue of xianity and being gay, and the bullying that tends to happen to kids who are gay (or fat, or Muslim, or choose whichever thing they're being bullied for) and the high rates of suicide amongst these kids. The author, and her husband, are both christians. She was speaking in a letter to her son, about what would happen in their home if he came and told them he was gay (since there was only mention of the son, I presume they only have the one child).

Meh, rather than try and summarize, I'll link it and quote some of the pertinent parts. It was a rather refreshing thing to read, considering the usual blech and blather from a large segment of the xian population when it comes to being gay. I don't absolutely agree with everything she says/believes in (ie. I am an atheist) but it was a different read than I'm used to. Rachael Held Evans had a good piece too. I'll find it later, when I'm at home.

Link

Along with every other concerned parent, I watch Amer#ica’s responses to bullying-related suicides closely. People always seem quite shocked by the cruelty that’s happening in America’s schools. I’m baffled by their shock, and I’m concerned about what’s not being addressed in their proposed solutions.

The acceptable response seems to be that we should better educate students and teachers about what bullying is and how to react to it appropriately. This plan is positive, certainly. But on its own, it seems a little like bailing frantically without first looking for the hole in the boat.

Each time these stories are reported, the sound bite is: “kids can be so cruel.” This is something we tend to say: kids these days, they can be so cruel. But I think this is just a phrase we toss around to excuse ourselves from facing the truth. I don’t think kids are any crueler than adults. I just think kids are less adept at disguising their cruelty.

I heard a radio report that students who are most likely to be bullied are gay kids, overweight kids, and Muslim kids.

Hmmmmm.

I bet that at this point in American history, gay adults, overweight adults, and Muslim adults feel the most bullied as well.

Children are not cruel. Children are mirrors. They want to be “grownup,” so they act how grown-ups act when we think they’re not looking. They do not act how we tell them to act at school assemblies. They act how we really act. They believe what we believe. They say what we say. And we have taught them that gay people are not okay. That overweight people are not okay. That Muslim people are not okay. That they are not equal. That they are to be feared. And people hurt the things they fear. We know that. What they are doing in the schools, what we are doing in the media—it’s all the same. The only difference is that children bully in the hallways and the cafeterias while we bully from behind pulpits and legislative benches and sitcom one-liners.

People are sensitive. People are heartbreakingly sensitive. If enough people tell someone over and over that he is not okay, he will believe it. And one way or another, he will die.

So how is any of this surprising? It’s quite predictable, actually. It’s trickle-down cruelty.

She goes on to write this letter to her son.

Dear Chase,

Whoever you are, whoever you become, you are loved. You are a miracle. You are our dream come true. Tweet: Whoever you are, whoever you become, you are loved. You are a miracle. You are a dream come true.

Chase, here is what would happen in our home if one day you were to tell your father and me that you are gay.

Our eyes would open wide.

Then we would grab you and hold you tighter than you would be able to bear. And while we were holding you, we would say a silent prayer that as little time as possible passed between the moment you knew you were gay and the moment you told us. And we would love you and ask you one million questions, and then we would love you some more and finally, I would rush out to buy some rainbow T-shirts, honey, because you know Mama likes to have an appropriate outfit for every occasion.

And I don’t mean, Chase, that we would be tolerant of you and your sexuality. If our goal is to be tolerant of people who are different than we are, Chase, then we really are aiming quite low. Traffic jams are to be tolerated. People are to be celebrated. Every person is Divine. Tweet: Traffic jams are to be tolerated. People are to be celebrated. Every person is Divine. And so there would be celebrating. Celebrating that you had stepped closer to matching your outsides with your insides—to being who you are. And there would be a teeny part of my heart that would leap at the realization that I would forever be the most important woman in your life. Then we would tell everyone. We would not concern ourselves too much with their reactions. There will always be party poopers, baby.

Honey, we’ve worried that since we are Christians, and since we love the Bible so much, there might come a day when you feel unclear about our feelings about this, since there are parts in the Bible that appear to discuss homosexuality as a sin. Let us be clear about how we feel, because we have spent years of research and prayer and discussion deciding.

Chase, we don’t believe that homosexuality is a sin. The Bible was inspired by God, but it was written, translated, and interpreted by imperfect people just like us. This means that the passing of this sacred scripture from generation to generation and from culture to culture has been a bit like the “telephone game” you play at school. After thousands of years, it’s impossible to judge the original spirit of some scripture. We believe that when in doubt, mercy triumphs judgment. So your parents are Christians who study and pray and then carefully choose what we follow in the Bible, based on whether or not it matches our understanding of Jesus’s overall message. Certainly we make mistakes. Everyone does. But it’s our duty to try. We must each work out our own faith with fear and trembling. It’s the most important thing we’ll ever do. Even so, some folks will tell you that our approach to Christianity is scandalous and blasphemous. But honey, the only thing that’s scandalous about this approach is admitting it out loud. The truth is that every Christian is a Christian who chooses what he follows in the Bible.

Recently there was some talk in my Bible study about homosexuality being sinful. I quoted Mother Teresa and said, “When we judge people we have no time to love them.” I was immediately reprimanded for my blasphemy by a woman who reminded me of 1 Corinthians 6:9–10. But I was confused because this woman was speaking. In church. And she was also wearing a necklace. And I could see her hair, baby. She had no head covering. All of which are sooooo totally against the New Testament Bible Rules. And so I assumed that she had decided not to follow the parts of the Bible that limited her particular freedoms, but to hold fast to the parts that limit the freedoms of others. I didn’t point this out at the time, because she wasn’t a bad person. People are doing the best they can, mostly. It’s best not to embarrass anyone.

Much of the Bible is confusing, but the most important parts aren’t. Sometimes I wonder if folks keep arguing about the confusing parts so they don’t have to get started doing the simple parts. So a long time ago, your father and I decided that if a certain scripture turns our judgment outward instead of inward, if it requires us to worry about changing others instead of ourselves, if it doesn’t help us become better lovers of God and life and others, if it distracts us from what we are supposed to be doing down here—finding God in everyone, feeding hungry people, comforting the sick and the sad, giving whatever we have to give, and laying down our lives for our friends—then we assume we don’t understand it yet, and we get back to what we do understand. Chase, what we do understand is that we are reborn. And here is what I believe it means to be reborn:

The first time you’re born, you identify the people in the room as your family. The second time you’re born, you identify the whole world as your family. Christianity is not about joining a particular club; it’s about waking up to the fact that we are all in the same club. Every last one of us. So avoid discussions about who’s in and who’s out at all costs. Everybody’s in, baby. That’s what makes it beautiful. And hard. If working out your faith is not beautiful and hard, find a new one to work out. And if spiritual teachers are encouraging you to fear anyone, watch them closely, honey. Raise your eyebrow and then your hand. Because the phrase repeated most often in that Bible they quote is Do Not Be Afraid. So when they tell you that gay people are a threat to marriage, honey, think hard.

I can only speak from my personal experience, but I’ve been married for ten years and barely any gay people have tried to break up my marriage. I say barely any because that Nate Berkus is a little shady. I am defenseless against his cuteness and eye for accessories. He is always convincing me to buy beautiful trinkets with our grocery money, and this drives your sweet father a bit nuts. So you might want to keep your eye on Berkus. But with the exception of him, I’m fairly certain that the only threats to your father’s and my marriage are our pride, insecurity, anger, and wanderlust. Do not be afraid of people who seem different from you, baby. Different always turns out to be an illusion. Look hard.

Chase, God gave you the Bible, and he also gave you your heart and your mind, and I believe he’d like you to use all three. It’s a good system of checks and balances he designed. Prioritizing can still be hard, though. Jesus predicted that. So he gave us this story: A man approached Jesus and said that he was very confused by all of God’s laws and directions and asked Jesus to break it down for him. He asked, “What are the most important laws?” And Jesus said, “Love God with all your heart, mind and soul, and love others as yourself.” He added that every other scripture hangs on this one. So use that ultimate command as a lens to examine all other scripture. And make damn sure that you are offering others the same rights and respect that you expect for yourself. If you do that, you can’t go wrong.

Chase, you are okay. You are a child of God. As is everyone else. There is nothing that you have done or will do that will make God love you any more or any less. Nothing that you already are or will become is a surprise to God. Tomorrow has already been approved.

And so, baby, your father and I have only one expectation of you. And that is that you celebrate others the way we celebrate you. That you remember, every day, every minute, that there is no one on God’s Green Earth who deserves more or less respect than you do, My Love.

“He has shown you what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.”—Mica 6:8

Love, Mama

PS. We thought we should mention, honey, that if you’re straight, that’s okay too. I mean, it’d be a little anticlimactic now, honestly. But your father and I will deal.

PPS. As Daddy read this, I watched his gorgeous face intensify. He teared up a little. Then he slammed the letter down on the kitchen table and said emphatically and without a touch of irony, “DAMN STRAIGHT.” Which, when you think about it, is really the funniest thing Daddy could have said.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Does this mean to imply that in order not to be a bigot, you must be against all religions to exactly the same degree, rather than being more opposed to one than another?

Because I think that's going to fall apart really quickly once you notice that all major religions have hugely different precepts and demand different things of their adherents (even the Abrahamic ones, which are fundamentally the same).

For example, if I'm anti-religion, I can be anti-Christianity for different reasons than I'm anti-Islam - in fact, I really should be if my position is anything other than hopelessly superficial. Some of the reasons will overlap, others won't.

No it means that you can be against as much of any part of any or all religions as you want. Or you can be for as much of any or all religions as you want. It becomes bigotry when you use someones beliefs as a means to judge them based solely on that.

At the same time, I'm with pylon too. It's difficult to take someone seriously who doesn't adapt themselves to common knowledge. Personally, anything outside what we know about our natural universe is totally fair game for me. If you want to believe that your conciousness somehow ascends to a different plane and call that Heaven or Nirvana or whatever; Or if you want to believe that we are in a tiny bubble in God's bubble bath, fine, go for it. But I think it has to be grounded in the realm of what we know to be true. And it becomes a big problem for me when I see people that actually aren't really able to think for themselves. Literally the smartest person I know is the son of a pastor and is very religious. I can't grasp how he's gotten through an entire array of science courses with 4.0 GPA and still believe this stuff. Sometimes I'm not sure if he's just faking it, but I've had one on one conversations with him and it just comes down to "well it's faith". It's this frustrating trump card that means you have to stop or else you cross that line. But it can be infuriating.

So I guess, maybe there is some religious bigotry, and maybe I'm part of it, but from the point of view of "but that's just NOT true", the line kind of gets blurred. How can you be a bigot about something that is proven a basic certainty? Aren't you just kind of right about certain things?

I guess what I'm getting at is that in order to not be a bigot, you have to be as objective as possible in pretty much every scenario, and not apply your own bias to any person or situation. We all have them towards a lot of things. It's not the bigotry that's necessarily the problem, those things will get weeded out over time IMO, it's the acting on it. It's the somehow crossing the line of "it's ok for me to hinder or harm this person because they don't believe the same things as me" that is s serious problem. It's tough to understand how someone can have such conviction over things that are AT BEST up for dispute, and in many cases just plain not true.

[AcGold]

As far as heaven goes quantum physics actually agrees with the idea of other realities and dimensions. Quantum tunneling and quantum entanglement proves a particle can interact with non local mass instantly and that 3 dimensional reality is only one observation of many dimensions.

If anything common knowledge leads me to think there is a possibility of other worlds or an afterlife. The entire universe is connected electrically and our brains operate via electrical patterns. Mass can have instantaneous influence faster than the speed of light and it can travel between two points via higher dimensions. I'm not ruling anything out.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by AcGold

As far as heaven goes quantum physics actually agrees with the idea of other realities and dimensions. Quantum tunneling and quantum entanglement proves a particle can interact with non local mass instantly and that 3 dimensional reality is only one observation of many dimensions.

If anything common knowledge leads me to think there is a possibility of other worlds or an afterlife. The entire universe is connected electrically and our brains operate via electrical patterns. Mass can have instantaneous influence faster than the speed of light and it can travel between two points via higher dimensions. I'm not ruling anything out.

Yeah this is kind of where I'm at as well.

[afc wimbledon]

The world would be a hell of a lot better place if the religious just realized that all their laws and rules only applied to them, think being gays a sin? that's fine don't be shagging other dudes, think eating pork's a sin, don't be eating bacon (although that's crazy talk right there) not only is none of your business what other people do but your supposed to be tempted, that's the whole point of our existence down here, what's the point of God making sodomy a sin if you can't find anyone to have sex with?
And if you honestly think it's your job to punish sinners you obviously have no faith in gods ability to smite people on his own.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by jammies

Well, since this is the thread for it...

Vilifying Christianity is not productive, but vilifying is not the same as pointing out issues with it. To say mainstream Christian attitudes are not both historically anti-gay, and actively anti-gay today, is simply false. The same with Islamic or Jewish attitudes, both of which share the same proscriptions against homosexuality from the same sources, and have the same anti-humanist throwbacks among their believers.

When the claim is that Christianity has largely created the culture we live in, you have to accept that the darker aspects of that culture are also mainly Christian. To move beyond these darker aspects means we must reject at least some of Christianity to do so. This is not simplifying the causes of violence against gays, this is recognizing that basing your religion upon a book that advocates violence against gays is one of the root causes of such violence. Let me say that again, although you would think it would be too obvious to need repetition: if the book you believe in says you should hate gays, it becomes a primary reason why believers hate gays.

There are many Christians, Muslims and Jews that do not hate, or even wish to marginalize gays, but they are doing so against what their holy books teach. Of course, once you reject one part of your religion, it becomes easier to reject more and more of it until you espouse it not at all, which is why it is such a contentious issue for the rabidly faithful, who are not interested in nuance and change but rather inerrant, eternal faith.

I've always found this view somewhere between comical and nonsensical. As if being Catholic and or Christian or Jewish or whatever makes you bound to believe every aspect of the holy books.

There is no official list confirming beliefs that all must be held to qualify as a particular denomination. Some main tenets but no strict list.

This isn't 500 years ago. No one is being ex communicated for having slightly different beliefs.

Originally Posted by GGG

I don't know if you can say mainstream Christianity As a blanket statement. Evangelicals and Catholics are still anti gay though Catholics are slowly moderating with both Anglican and United churches being relatively accepting.

To follow what I said above, same idea here. Evangelicals and Catholics? You mean the official stance of the churches? Or did you recently poll every Christian on earth?

It's like saying Conservatives are all anti gay. No...there are wide ranging opinions on the issue and the party opinion often changes and adapts. Some Conservatives may be extremely anti gay and some may be pro equal rights. The idea that one must be anti gay in order to be a Conservative is asinine, as is the idea that all Cons are anti gay because they are Conservatives.

[PostandIn]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Right, and that's why I specifically said there is a middle road; that is, "you have the right to do this but here's why you shouldn't". I'm not endorsing the position that gay people shouldn't marry, by the way - I think people generally should arrange their life in the way that makes them happy - it's just an example of an argument against gay marriage that isn't religiously motivated.

I don't think this works. In fact I think it just leads to phenomena like Trump. It's a pretty big problem with society, and one that's getting worse, that we don't talk to or listen to people we disagree with. So I don't think it should be socially unacceptable to believe religious nonsense, if you want to call it that - I don't think making things "socially unacceptable" is the best way to address erroneous belief.

I don't go around telling religious people how ridiculous their beliefs are, personally, but if you were really animated to dispel the religious notions of religious people, I would think the Socratic method would be the only way to do it effectively.

I'm not advocating going around telling everyone that's religious that they are stupid and wrong. I agree, that strategy is not going to work. So let's start with the Socratic method, as you suggest. 'Mr. Obama, do you believe in the separation of church and state? I see, why do you close official addresses with God bless you, God bless your families and God bless the United States of America? As Head of State, do you think you are providing the best example of leadership when you use this phrase in an increasingly secular society? You appear to respect science related to climate change but disrespect science related to the existence of deities and the books they have written. Why is that?'

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by PostandIn

I'm not advocating going around telling everyone that's religious that they are stupid and wrong. I agree, that strategy is not going to work. So let's start with the Socratic method, as you suggest. 'Mr. Obama, do you believe in the separation of church and state? I see, why do you close official addresses with God bless you, God bless your families and God bless the United States of America? As Head of State, do you think you are providing the best example of leadership when you use this phrase in an increasingly secular society? You appear to respect science related to climate change but disrespect science related to the existence of deities and the books they have written. Why is that?'

To which Obama would reply 'it's a democracy you dumb twat, I need to appeal to the religious no matter what my own personal feelings are'

[PostandIn]

Obama is not compelled to invoke God in any way simply because the US is a democracy. Don't know how you draw those things together but whatever.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by PostandIn

Obama is not compelled to invoke God in any way simply because the US is a democracy. Don't know how you draw those things together but whatever.

I think the suggestion was is that he is kind of compelled to say it if he wants people to vote for him.

Of course, he's run his last election. He doesn't need to say it anymore, but he still does because it appears to be a true sentiment. He's a religious guy.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

it's just an example of an argument against gay marriage that isn't religiously motivated.

Just to clarify, my point was about the right to marry, not marriage itself. So that's not exactly a fitting example.

There are about a billion non-religious reasons not to marry, gay or straight.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by pylon

I'll never get in the way of someone's beliefs, they can believe what they want. I also won't preach atheism to them either. Not my business. But I'm not going to lie when I say internally, I judge religious people as less intelligent, and of poor judgement. No different than I judge people that watch shows about psychics and mediums. Or people that fall into MLM traps. You're just kinda stupid if you fall into that trap, and I think less of you for it.

This is a pretty ####ty viewpoint. Presumptuous, arrogant, judgmental, ignorant... not really sure where to end on the descriptors really. Kind of shameful, condescending.

I'm not religious, but I draw the line at deeming others' intelligence on what they believe. What a poor way to conduct oneself, or maybe if you don't conduct yourself this way, to truly believe in thought process. You really think that all of the billions of people that ascribe to a faith are just stupider than you? Holy ####, what arrogance- and further- how utterly wrong!

There could be times in life, when a person could use a crutch like religion, to appeal to a higher power in prayer and in faith, in hope. For that reason alone I wouldn't judge somebody based on what they believe, or simply write them off as being inferior intellectually than me.

And the truth is that the moment I do actually believe that, is the moment I am probably stupider than they are.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

This is a pretty ####ty viewpoint. Presumptuous, arrogant, judgmental, ignorant... not really sure where to end on the descriptors really. Kind of shameful, condescending.

I'm not religious, but I draw the line at deeming others' intelligence on what they believe. What a poor way to conduct oneself, or maybe if you don't conduct yourself this way, to truly believe in thought process. You really think that all of the billions of people that ascribe to a faith are just stupider than you? Holy ####, what arrogance- and further- how utterly wrong!

There could be times in life, when a person could use a crutch like religion, to appeal to a higher power in prayer and in faith, in hope. For that reason alone I wouldn't judge somebody based on what they believe, or simply write them off as being inferior intellectually than me.

And the truth is that the moment I do actually believe that, is the moment I am probably stupider than they are.

It's a personal opinion, nothing more.

Just as I am judged by the religious for not believing in god, I have a right to judge them for doing the opposite. The difference is, according to the beliefs of most people of faith, I am destined for eternal damnation and hell for not following their chosen path. I think that is far more harsh than me thinking you're naive for believing in an unproven story of magic, when there is so much scientific research, that pretty much debunks everything said in any holy text.

Live and let live. Believe what you want, I couldn't care less, it's a free country. My opinion of it shouldn't matter to you, if you're convinced a man in the sky is judging your every move. My opinion is the least of your problems.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by pylon

It's a personal opinion, nothing more.

Just as I am judged by the religious for not believing in god, I have a right to judge them for doing the opposite. The difference is, according to the beliefs of most people of faith, I am destined for eternal damnation and hell for not following their chosen path. I think that is far more harsh than me thinking you're naive for believing in an unproven story of magic, when there is so much scientific research, that pretty much debunks everything said in any holy text.

Live and let live. Believe what you want, I couldn't care less, it's a free country. My opinion of it shouldn't matter to you, if you're convinced a man in the sky is judging your every move. My opinion is the least of your problems.

All I'm saying is it's a pretty arrogant belief you possess in your own right. That so many people in this world were never born to access the type of life, upbringing, opportunity and most importantly education you have, doesn't necessarily make them less intelligent than you. Or did you mean educated? And even if they were educated under the same circumstances, but they end up being religious. That makes them stupider than you?

It's just as toxic a position and belief system as what religious types who push their agendas on others is. It's not constructive at all to bridging understanding. 'You're religious so I'm smarter than you'? Lame.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

All I'm saying is it's a pretty arrogant belief you possess in your own right. That so many people in this world were never born to access the type of life, upbringing, opportunity and most importantly education you have, doesn't necessarily make them less intelligent than you. Or did you mean educated? And even if they were educated under the same circumstances, but they end up being religious. That makes them stupider than you?

It's just as toxic a position and belief system as what religious types who push their agendas on others is. It's not constructive at all to bridging understanding. 'You're religious so I'm smarter than you'? Lame.

It's just as arrogant to believe I am destined for an afterlife of torture and suffering for not believing in the same, or for sleeping with someone of the same sex, or for being envious of my neighbors Porsche.... etc, etc, etc.

Should we continue to go in circles?

Both sides can be utterly ignorant.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by AcGold

As far as heaven goes quantum physics actually agrees with the idea of other realities and dimensions. Quantum tunneling and quantum entanglement proves a particle can interact with non local mass instantly and that 3 dimensional reality is only one observation of many dimensions.

If anything common knowledge leads me to think there is a possibility of other worlds or an afterlife. The entire universe is connected electrically and our brains operate via electrical patterns. Mass can have instantaneous influence faster than the speed of light and it can travel between two points via higher dimensions. I'm not ruling anything out.

The irony of people pointing out the nonsensical nature of religion and then invoking quantum physics is just so effing rich.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by pylon

It's just as arrogant to believe I am destined for an afterlife of torture and suffering for not believing in the same, or for sleeping with someone of the same sex, or for being envious of my neighbors Porsche.... etc, etc, etc.

Should we continue to go in circles?

Both sides can be utterly ignorant.

I guess so, but why would you be so purposely? The old classic two wrongs don't make a right should apply here, no?

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by rubecube

The irony of people pointing out the nonsensical nature of religion and then invoking quantum physics is just so effing rich.

Wait... why? I'm wondering if you think quantum physics is inherently nonsensical simply because its implications are counterintuitive.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

I guess so, but why would you be so purposely? The old classic two wrongs don't make a right should apply here, no?

It's not two wrongs don't make a right. And I would never say it to someones face, ever. I have a lot of friends and acquaintances that believe in religion, my own mother does to an extent, and those same people have tried to preach it to me, and I just say "Ok, if that's what you believe. It's just not for me."

I have never once, insulted someone to their face about their beliefs. I have had many people tell me I am misguided and uninformed for not following their path.

Hey if you want to think I am the son of Satan for believing in the likes of Lawrence Krauss, or Neil Degrasse Tyson... keep it to yourself, I don't need to hear it.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Wait... why? I'm wondering if you think quantum physics is inherently nonsensical simply because its implications are counterintuitive.

You keep saying words, but you don't know what they mean. Sorry but if you think Quantum physics helps you define god, you will find not more than 2 physicists who might listen.