Who is more valuable to the flames?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I don't think it's even close ... Brodie in a landslide.

Offensively you have Gaudreau easily, but so much goes on away from the offensive net with Brodie and you can't win without that type of player.

He's certainly involved in the offense, but shutting down the opposition, killing penalties, leading the transition.

Gaudreau would spend another 5 minutes a night in his own zone without Brodie on the team.

Sure, but the flipside of that is:

It isn't that hard to find other defensemen that can move the puck forward.

It is more difficult to find another forward that is so individually adept at turning that rush into an actual goal.

(Note: I am possibly Brodie's biggest fan on these boards, other than BBF)

[Huntingwhale]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Johnny is a game breaker, there's maybe 15-20 of those players in the league. Brodie is a good defenseman but he's not going to win games solely on his own.

No defenceman, other then a couple, win games on their own. Johnny is a game-breaker, no doubt. But guess who gets him the puck so he can break the game open in the first place?

Again, I'm surprised at the results. Brodie plays some of the hardest minutes in the league and excels at it. He is our best defender at skating the puck out of his zone and up the ice. The team seems to play a much different style when Brodie isn't around to skate the puck out. That's such a great skillset for a team to have. One that many teams don't even have.

Gaudreau may have been a top 10 offensive player this past season. But what if he's not next season? IMO it's way to early to start making statements like that until he's proven it over a couple seasons. The best players in the game (which I think Gaudreau will be one day) have a proven track record over multiple seasons to fall back on.

With Brodie, he's been a mainstay on the backend since Bouwmeester left. He might not have the offensive abilities Gaudreau has. But he's a much more complete player. He kills penalties. He plays a shutdown role. He gets the hard defensive assignments. He's the backbone of our backend. The teams record without him and the eye test prove that.

[Enoch Root]

I voted Gaudreau. But same question on another day, I could just as easily vote Brodie.

[Inglewood Jack]

Johnny is a couple years from his prime, Brodie is in it right now, so even if Johnny weren't winning this poll now, he'd almost definitely be doing so in 2018. Tough question though since their jobs are so different. It's not far off from asking who between Iggy and Kipper was the MVP of the mid 2000s

[Illuminaughty]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Sure, but the flipside of that is:

It isn't that hard to find other defensemen that can move the puck forward.

It is more difficult to find another forward that is so individually adept at turning that rush into an actual goal.

(Note: I am possibly Brodie's biggest fan on these boards, other than BBF)

If it isn't that hard to find puck moving defensemen, why haven't the Oilers found enough of them?

To me this isn't even close. Brodie controls the flow of the game on the back end, he wins the puck and can skate or make excellent passes out of his end.
He can play in all situations and play half of the game if need be.

Brodie is one of the top 10 defensemen in the league and is underrated much like Doughty,(best player in the league IMO) because they don't put up as many points as some others at that position.

If Gaudreau isn't putting up points, he's doing nothing for you.

[Illuminaughty]

The Flames puck possession stats aren't great with Brodie in the line-up, take him out and it's worst in the league.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Illuminaughty

If it isn't that hard to find puck moving defensemen, why haven't the Oilers found enough of them?

To me this isn't even close. Brodie controls the flow of the game on the back end, he wins the puck and can skate or make excellent passes out of his end.
He can play in all situations and play half of the game if need be.

Brodie is one of the top 10 defensemen in the league and is underrated much like Doughty,(best player in the league IMO) because they don't put up as many points as some others at that position.

If Gaudreau isn't putting up points, he's doing nothing for you.

Came out wrong. Meant it isn't AS hard (as finding an elite, top 10 scoring wizard.

They are both extremely valuable.

[Illuminaughty]

If Gaudreau was a dominant center I would agree with you. Scoring wingers are complimentary pieces and much easier to replace at least some of their offense.

Young top-pairing stud D-men, that excel in all situations are not replaceable. Who was the last top-pairing D-man to got to UFA even, Sutter?

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Illuminaughty

If Gaudreau was a dominant center I would agree with you. Scoring wingers are complimentary pieces and much easier to replace at least some of their offense.

Young top-pairing stud D-men, that excel in all situations are not replaceable. Who was the last top-pairing D-man to got to UFA even, Sutter?

Seriously? Calling a second year PPG player a complimentary piece is beyond trolling.

Gaudreau brings excitement and fans out of their seats not seen since another complimentary piece with the name Theo.

You need to stop sniffing.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Illuminaughty

If Gaudreau isn't putting up points, he's doing nothing for you.

Well sure, but he basically puts up a point a game and is a top ten NHL producer. That type of comment is more for streaky, flaky scorers who require everything to be set up for them. Johnny creates offense from nothing (a lot of it starting in his own zone which is in itself defensive play), he doesn't float around waiting for the perfect set up.

"When he's not scoring he does nothing for you except going through the process of being an elite point getter".

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Illuminaughty

If Gaudreau was a dominant center I would agree with you. Scoring wingers are complimentary pieces and much easier to replace at least some of their offense.

Young top-pairing stud D-men, that excel in all situations are not replaceable. Who was the last top-pairing D-man to got to UFA even, Sutter?

Well, Jones and Hamilton were both traded in the last 12 months. Neither is a #1 yet, but both have the potential to be.

[MarkGio]

A top left winger is the least valuable position of all the top positions (RW, C, LD, RD, G). The Flames could theoretically come close to replacing him internally with Poirer, Jankowski, Shinkaruk, Bennett, Mangiapane, etc.

While it's possible Brodie could be close to being replaced internally, I think it's less likely.

[Illuminaughty]

Originally Posted by T@T

Seriously? Calling a second year PPG player a complimentary piece is beyond trolling.

Gaudreau brings excitement and fans out of their seats not seen since another complimentary piece with the name Theo.

You need to stop sniffing.

First of all, I was calling scoring wingers complimentary pieces. Most teams in the NHL are built from the middle or the backend.

There's no denying Gaudreau is an electric talent. You don't win the stanley cup playing fire wagon hockey any more.

I suggest you read the thread title again before commenting on what I might or might not be doing recreationally.

[Inglewood Jack]

So the Flames have 6 Gaudreaus...I'm gonna go ahead and unplug my internet now, possibly forever.

[Illuminaughty]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Well sure, but he basically puts up a point a game and is a top ten NHL producer. That type of comment is more for streaky, flaky scorers who require everything to be set up for them. Johnny creates offense from nothing (a lot of it starting in his own zone which is in itself defensive play), he doesn't float around waiting for the perfect set up.

"When he's not scoring he does nothing for you except going through the process of being an elite point getter".

Except all those road games where he's shut down and not putting up points. He creates space for his linemates but he relies on them to win the puck and get it to him. He's never going to be a Selke trophy nominee.

As fans it's easy to put an emphasis on putting up points, but there are other facets to the game just as important.

I would also argue Monahan is more valuable to the Flames then Johnny, and that's not a knock on the elite talent that Johnny is.

[Illuminaughty]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

A top left winger is the least valuable position of all the top positions (RW, C, LD, RD, G). The Flames could theoretically come close to replacing him internally with Poirer, Jankowski, Shinkaruk, Bennett, Mangiapane, etc.

While it's possible Brodie could be close to being replaced internally, I think it's less likely.

None of those players have shown to be a ppg player for a season as of yet. There's nobody in system close to replacing either of those guys.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Illuminaughty

If it isn't that hard to find puck moving defensemen, why haven't the Oilers found enough of them?

Because they're no good.

[doncherry]

Originally Posted by SebC

Because they're no good.

Too easy, but thanks

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by Illuminaughty

None of those players have shown to be a ppg player for a season as of yet. There's nobody in system close to replacing either of those guys.

No, but your top line LW doesn't HAVE to be a 30g ppg player. He can be 20g 0.6ppg player and still be a top line LWer.

However, your #1 D has to be an effective 25 minute defender who puts up 40pts. You're #1C has to be 50% or better at 1500 faceoffs and your top RW is best a righty (not always a righty) who puts up 20g 0.6ppg player. And of course your #1 G needs to be around 0.915 SV%, 2.25 GAA.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Illuminaughty

If it isn't that hard to find puck moving defensemen, why haven't the Oilers found enough of them?

If there are so many nuts in the world, why don't blind squirrels find enough of them?

You can't take one team's massive, perennial failure and generalize that to the league as a whole.