Bollig and Ferland: What Role Do they Play?

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

Go around the league and find someone who is "intimidating". Do people not know the rules? Who wants to punch a helmet that's meant to protect your head against 100mph hard rubber pucks?

Nobody drops their gloves and helmet anymore. Almost everyone wears a visor or full face piece. For heaven's sake there was goons a few years back trying to take each others helmet off!

The only retribution you have is a cheap shot

That's what you took out of my post? OK.

[Wolfman]

You could replace Bollig with a pee wee player and would get the same contributions. The guy offers nothing on the ice. Always out of position and scrambling on the ice. Hope he finds himself dealt in the offseason or the first to be put on waivers.

Ferland is still young and trying to figure out what his role is. Running around and smashing people all the time takes a toll on the body and he probably wants to offer more than being a grinder. He had decent points in his junior career in the WHL.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Canadian fans are far too impatient with player development.

Guy doesn't put up 25 goals in his first year? He's a bottom 6 player

More a matter of fans being smart enough to recognize that most NHLers will never be more than bottom-6 players. So then it becomes a question of what those bottom-6 players bring to the table - depth scoring, an energetic forecheck, tight defence - and at what price. Paul Byron brought more to the table than Bollig. Hathaway is doing Ferland's job better than Ferland. Bouma is overpaid. All legitimate complaints.

[Goodlad]

Ferland is 24th in the league in hits. The way people are talking about him you would think he's tied with Gaudreau for them. I thought it was obvious he wouldn't be able to play the way he did against Vancouver for an entire season, but I guess others disagree.

[browna]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Can we reset the expectations for Ferland? He had a good playoff series and has not lived up to that level of play since.

Ferland has zero (0) points in his last 13 games. That does not project to top 6. That is CP falling in love with the idea of the player, not the guy we see night in and night out.

Flashes are one thing, that is what may get you a shot at the NHL. Consistency is the basis for building a career.

Back to the buses and figure out what you bring that will make you stick.

Absolutely. He got fired up by getting suckered into a penalty early against Vancouver G1,R1, and that flipped a switch; that we didn't see before, and, after the Vancouver series, didn't see again. Manson got his arm up when he knew Ferland was coming, on Ferland's second shift in round 2, and that was it for the ANA series.

He's got some Sven Baerstchi-like expectation resetting to do, himself and the fans.

This year, the odd flash, but very few instances of a consistent rough and tumble effective player...

Originally Posted by cracher

Is it Bollig/Ferland being complacent, or has Hartley changed his coaching style over the last couple seasons? To me, it seems like the muscle simply doesn't ever get deployed against the offenders after a cheap-shot. Very different from a couple of seasons ago.

The hate for Bollig in this thread is a bit misguided, he doesn't fit a role on this team because he can't play his role because of Hartley's version of "discipline". That
s a conflict between the GM and coach. He's not a top tier enforcer (such as they are these days), and then being the vet, has to set the example and not take that retribution type show for fear of drawing a penalty....which leads to the point below.

Originally Posted by Canada 02

I think the problem is the teams culture. Ferland and Bollig were not on the ice when Gaudreau was jabbed by Keith. The 4 other guys on that shift should have done something.

When Hamilton was on top of Seabrook, the Hawks didn't wait until their tough guys were out to go after Dougie, Toews took care of it himself. He is their captain, their leader, he sets the culture of the team, which is to defend teammates

Same thing with the Flyers defending their captain when he was hit by Hanzal. Every Flyer on the ice went after Hanzal

This is a young team that will need to learn that part; as much as I like Gio, he needs to lead the way in setting that team culture

Great post, but not sure it's on Gio. This is all Hartley and trying to teach "discipline", or some form of it. A few years back when Lee Stempniak got attacked by Ference, at home, after throwing a clean hit, Ference throwing punches, to a guy that hasn't fought (though he got attacked the game just before in similar fashion against Dallas) in 5 years, and Lee didn't have his gloves off.....and the Flames did NOTHING the rest of the game, or since, to Ference, who's on a division rival.

Last night with Keith, less egregious, but no way you put up with that on one of your top players....but who does Hartley throw out the next shift (after a whistle)? Backlund and Frolik. Just terrible. We're 26th in the league and there's 6 games left, and we're letting players take liberties with our top wingers, and the Flames players turn the other way?

As above, I don't think its because the roster doesn't have guys that can take a whack at Keith next shift, or even some other Hawk the very next shift, it's that Hartley think's its undisciplined and warned the guys not to be undisciplined. So there are vets that are itching to do that are told to set examples for the younger players on the team, and the younger guys (and the vets alike) don't want to be in the Hartley dog house.

As Canada02 mentions, look at the other examples recently, and Chicago's response last night to a much less cheap shot than Keith's; all teams he referenced are playoff teams, and clearly those teams don't care if they're down a man by taking an extra penalty within a game, when it comes to making sure the other team, and other teams in future, can't push them around.

The Flames have nothing left to play for the year other then pride and setting the tone and changing the culture...and instead of pushing back, they let other teams just do what they want to top players...but hey, at least we've still taken the least penalties in the league (and still have the worst PK), right?

Hard to believe an organization with Burke around is letting that stuff happened without a response. Pathetic IMO.

[saillias]

Originally Posted by Goodlad

I thought it was obvious he wouldn't be able to play the way he did against Vancouver for an entire season, but I guess others disagree.

This is one thing I do disagree with. It's an excuse. Go balls to the wall 100% of the time, no? Garnet Hathaway and Lance Bouma are expected to do this, but Ferland has this built in excuse?

[united]

Bouma I give the benefit of the doubt because of his injuries this season, but no question he has been awful and looked out of sync. His deal always had the potential to "Prust", but I'll give him a month or two next season before becoming concerned.

Ferland is young and developing, and shows frequent flashes of brilliance. For him the consistency may always be the issued. Even though he'll be 24 next season, he has seemingly been a late bloomer at every level so I'm not concerned at all.

Bollig, on the other hand, hasn't done anything close to what is expected of him in his role, and to make things worse has had a terrible season in hockey playing terms. I was indifferent to his acquisition given he seemed like a poor man's Chris Neil in Chicago, but it's become evident that was due to the Blackhawks' depth and nothing Bollig did. I also get the impression (nothing but personal opinion) he was pretty bitter about getting moved from the Blackhawks and hasn't had the same commitment since. Simply put he shouldn't be in the NHL next season and shouldn't have been this season, either. His skating is a bit better than most enforcers', but his hands, shot, passing, hockey sense are all enforcer level. Other teams must love seeing him on the gamesheet knowing they will essentially have a powerplay when he's on the ice, and not face any physical intimidation either.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Canadian fans are far too impatient with player development.

Guy doesn't put up 25 goals in his first year? He's a bottom 6 player

I'm sorry, but that's not the argument. Ferland has all of 4 goals and 12 points, despite lots of opportunities with good line mates, not scrubbing in on the 4th line all year. With his supposed talent he should be at least around the 10 goal mark if he's ever to be considered a top 6 player. Not to mention he has a team worst -17. Bollig is only -10. If Ferland is seriously being considered a top 6 player after this season I'd be shocked. Does he have potential still? Sure. Do I think he playing anywhere close to his potential? No. But still, those two statements don't mean he should be a top 6 player. His best case scenario always was a bottom 6 player who has some skill and skating ability, can hit like the dickens, and can occasionally fight. I think that's what people always should have expected from him, and now that they're realizing it he's supposedly a "disappointment". That's the part I have a problem with.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Goodlad

Ferland is 24th in the league in hits. The way people are talking about him you would think he's tied with Gaudreau for them. I thought it was obvious he wouldn't be able to play the way he did against Vancouver for an entire season, but I guess others disagree.

The thing is that you can argue Hathaway is already stealing his role on the team as he's come in and played with more edge and offensively it's a wash as Hathaway would put up the same point totals pro-rated. For crying out loud guys Ferland has 12 points in 64 games and that includes powerplay and top line time. 12 points! Jooris has put up the same numbers in a reduced role and less games. I'm not saying he has hit his potential but I think it's time to temper expectations as he's not a power forward that is going to crash and bang himself to 25 goals and 50 points. If he's lucky he will be a Cal Clutterbuck type of forward which is still useful but it's also not a solution to the teams issue of lack of top skilled wingers.

I think he's still a useful player going forward as his age and salary is exactly what a team needs in their bottom six and the only reason he catches flack is because some fans have vastly overrated him. It's the Jones (gone thank god), Stajan's, Bollig's and Bouma's that the team can and should move on from.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Goodlad

Ferland is 24th in the league in hits. The way people are talking about him you would think he's tied with Gaudreau for them. I thought it was obvious he wouldn't be able to play the way he did against Vancouver for an entire season, but I guess others disagree.

Who are the other 9?

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by browna

Absolutely. He got fired up by getting suckered into a penalty early against Vancouver G1,R1, and that flipped a switch; that we didn't see before, and, after the Vancouver series, didn't see again. Manson got his arm up when he knew Ferland was coming, on Ferland's second shift in round 2, and that was it for the ANA series.

He's got some Sven Baerstchi-like expectation resetting to do, himself and the fans.

This year, the odd flash, but very few instances of a consistent rough and tumble effective player...



The hate for Bollig in this thread is a bit misguided, he doesn't fit a role on this team because he can't play his role because of Hartley's version of "discipline". That
s a conflict between the GM and coach. He's not a top tier enforcer (such as they are these days), and then being the vet, has to set the example and not take that retribution type show for fear of drawing a penalty....which leads to the point below.



Great post, but not sure it's on Gio. This is all Hartley and trying to teach "discipline", or some form of it. A few years back when Lee Stempniak got attacked by Ference, at home, after throwing a clean hit, Ference throwing punches, to a guy that hasn't fought (though he got attacked the game just before in similar fashion against Dallas) in 5 years, and Lee didn't have his gloves off.....and the Flames did NOTHING the rest of the game, or since, to Ference, who's on a division rival.

Last night with Keith, less egregious, but no way you put up with that on one of your top players....but who does Hartley throw out the next shift (after a whistle)? Backlund and Frolik. Just terrible. We're 26th in the league and there's 6 games left, and we're letting players take liberties with our top wingers, and the Flames players turn the other way?

As above, I don't think its because the roster doesn't have guys that can take a whack at Keith next shift, or even some other Hawk the very next shift, it's that Hartley think's its undisciplined and warned the guys not to be undisciplined. So there are vets that are itching to do that are told to set examples for the younger players on the team, and the younger guys (and the vets alike) don't want to be in the Hartley dog house.

As Canada02 mentions, look at the other examples recently, and Chicago's response last night to a much less cheap shot than Keith's; all teams he referenced are playoff teams, and clearly those teams don't care if they're down a man by taking an extra penalty within a game, when it comes to making sure the other team, and other teams in future, can't push them around.

The Flames have nothing left to play for the year other then pride and setting the tone and changing the culture...and instead of pushing back, they let other teams just do what they want to top players...but hey, at least we've still taken the least penalties in the league (and still have the worst PK), right?

Hard to believe an organization with Burke around is letting that stuff happened without a response. Pathetic IMO.

I believe there may be some merit with what you say but on the other hand if I'm a head coach with the worst penalty killing this organization has ever had I would be constantly worried about my team being undisciplined. The Wild game showed just how easy things can get away from this team when they take penalties as they simply can't kill them off.

Now of course that argument comes full circle and right point blank into the face of the coaches again because it's their job to implement sound special teams to which they have failed miserably as I don't know if there's ever been a season where Flames special teams have been this bad. So I would say this staff is on thin ice and I expect them to get one more kick in the can but I also wouldn't be shocked if there were surprise firings all around after the conclusion of the season as the organization has not been enamoured with the play of the team this season.

[Frank MetaMusil]

As above, I don't think its because the roster doesn't have guys that can take a whack at Keith next shift, or even some other Hawk the very next shift, it's that Hartley think's its undisciplined and warned the guys not to be undisciplined. So there are vets that are itching to do that are told to set examples for the younger players on the team, and the younger guys (and the vets alike) don't want to be in the Hartley dog house.

As Canada02 mentions, look at the other examples recently, and Chicago's response last night to a much less cheap shot than Keith's; all teams he referenced are playoff teams, and clearly those teams don't care if they're down a man by taking an extra penalty within a game, when it comes to making sure the other team, and other teams in future, can't push them around.

The Flames have nothing left to play for the year other then pride and setting the tone and changing the culture...and instead of pushing back, they let other teams just do what they want to top players...but hey, at least we've still taken the least penalties in the league (and still have the worst PK), right?

Hard to believe an organization with Burke around is letting that stuff happened without a response. Pathetic IMO.

The stempniak incident was BS, for sure.

It's possible there's a mandate of no more fines though. Seems like every time the league senses the Flames are doing as you wish them to (retribution), they get hit with one.

How is that Hartley's fault?

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I don't really care much about any of these guys as the team has an abundance of bottom 6 players in the organization and IMO they are all rotational players that can be brought up, sent down, put in the press box, on waivers, etc. Hathaway, Agostino, Hamilton have all come in recently and shown they are just as good and no worse than the majority of bottom 6 mainstays for this team and IMO it's just a matter of the team shedding guys like Bouma and Bollig who make too much money for what they provide. Ferland's pedestrian play of late is due the the head coach gifting him ice time as he's a guy that needs occasional press box time to remember that he's only an NHL player when he's playing 100%. The Flames only need to bolster their top 6 talent as the organization has a wealth of guys that can plug into bottom 6 and it's a matter of drafting the right guys and possibly trading/signing another winger that's a legit replacement for Hudler.

Paying for bottom pair/4th line guys is something the Flames have been doing since the Sutter days. You could replace Bouma, Bollig, Stajan, Engelland with guys from the minors and not miss a beat. Instead you are paying these guys millions of dollars (excluding Bollig) to fill those roles.

Not that I particularly wanted either guy signed but if you didn't have Stajan/Engelland/Bouma signed for so much you could re-signed a Hudler or Russell.

And I don't think Bouma, Stajan or Engelland are bad players but I'd much rather than a top 9 player for those salaries.

[dammage79]

I can live with Bouma. The guy gets hurt doing the nasty things game in and game out. He really does leave it on the line out there. While he certainly hasn't performed up to last seasons standards I can fully appreciate why he hasn't. Thats because he plays the game hard and take bigger injuries. Problem is, his shelf life is shorter than most NHL players and I think that's the primary reason why he got paid what he did last off season. He's not going to make much more than this contract.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

For crying out loud guys Ferland has 12 points in 64 games and that includes powerplay and top line time. 12 points! Jooris has put up the same numbers in a reduced role and less games. I'm not saying he has hit his potential but I think it's time to temper expectations as he's not a power forward that is going to crash and bang himself to 25 goals and 50 points. If he's lucky he will be a Cal Clutterbuck type of forward which is still useful but it's also not a solution to the teams issue of lack of top skilled wingers.

I think he's still a useful player going forward as his age and salary is exactly what a team needs in their bottom six and the only reason he catches flack is because some fans have vastly overrated him. It's the Jones (gone thank god), Stajan's, Bollig's and Bouma's that the team can and should move on from.

It's almost like this is Ferland's first full season or something crazy like that.

[CSharp]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Ferland isn't an enforcer. Ferland is a late blooming power forward who we are unfortunately developing at the NHL level instead of the minors because of how good he was versus Vancouver. He has the skill to be a top two line power forward if he can put it all together.

Bollig gets a lot of hate and I partially understand why. You guys wanna see him punching faces and taking instigators when I think he does more verbal threatening as our pseudo enforcer. His skill level for a pseudo enforcer is actually quite good. He can skate and make NHL plays unlike a lot of old style enforcers. He's almost a perfect 14th forward to me. Doesn't complain when he's sat, makes his teammates feel bigger. You'd certainly rather be scratching him when we're fully healthy than a kid we're trying to develop.

Overall I think some of you expect too much from these guys. Ferland is still developing. Bollig is our 14th forward. Ferland's play has dropped off a bit lately but that's no reason to give up on his potential. Bollig even though some call him useless probably has the best NHL skills of any enforcer or pseudo-enforcer that the Flames have ever had. Overall I haven't been disappointed with either guy. They aren't the problem and don't deserve to be whipping boys.

I totally agree with this. Both are a necessity on the Flames team - more so Ferland once he's more established in the top 6. Bollig might not be required to be the enforcer every single game but he does add toughness that I think a guy like Stajan lacks. The 3 players - Ferland, Bouma, Bollig -when the Flames can get into the playoffs and when these 3 are healthy, watch out!

[CSharp]

Originally Posted by saillias

This is one thing I do disagree with. It's an excuse. Go balls to the wall 100% of the time, no? Garnet Hathaway and Lance Bouma are expected to do this, but Ferland has this built in excuse?

Hathaway is new to the NHL and wants a job for next year. That's why is going balls to the walls every game. Same with Ferland last year. By next year, if Hathaway doesn't come down to the level of most experienced NHL'ers and goes balls to the walls every game, I'll be he'll get injured a quarter of the way through it. Ferland can tell you that. Bouma - you know the story. I htink Bouma should step it down abit for the sake of not getting injured so often as he's more valuable on the ice than when he's not.

[Southside]

I was really hopeful Ferlands series against the Canucks was the evolution of the player. He has been nothing like that and if he doesn't figure things out he will lose ice time to the likes of Hathaway, Grant and Hunter. Typically stubborn Hartley keeps trying him on the first line and that just isn't his game. The guy is a 3rd line banger. That's it. That's all.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by CSharp

Hathaway is new to the NHL and wants a job for next year. That's why is going balls to the walls every game. Same with Ferland last year. By next year, if Hathaway doesn't come down to the level of most experienced NHL'ers and goes balls to the walls every game, I'll be he'll get injured a quarter of the way through it. Ferland can tell you that. Bouma - you know the story. I htink Bouma should step it down abit for the sake of not getting injured so often as he's more valuable on the ice than when he's not.

Hathaway makes hits but he's not running around drilling guys 10 times a game like Ferland was in that series, he's more of a pain in the ass who will finish his hits. Bouma's big problem is that he blocks shots like he's wearing goalie equipment which he's not so he takes pucks off his hands and other vulnerable spots.

[FaFaFlamey]

It's next to impossible to play the way Ferland played in the playoffs for an entire year. That's why Ferland has cooled off. I'm not sure which Color man said that on TV a couple weeks ago, but said same will happen with Hathaway. It's just too hard on the body. I mean, let's hope it can be done, and he can score a pile of goals too, but not likely.