THN Futurewatch Flames ranking

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by New Era

We need fans to calm the #### down and realize development isn't a linear process. I mean writing off Poirier and Klimchuk? Two 21 year olds? Just stupid.

Fans tend to look at box scores and think that a guy scoring a lot is a better prospect than a guy who just does what his coach asks of him. I'll take the guy that does what the coach asks for. Mangiapane is the latest wunderkind because of his big numbers. I would still rate him well behind Poirier and Klimchuk, regardless of what the box scores tell you. It will be interesting to see what little Andrew Mangiapane will do at the AHL level, playing a system that is not conducive to scoring. I suspect he'll quickly fall into the bust category with many fans because he isn't putting up gaudy numbers. The pro game is different because players have to learn to play at both ends of the ice. There is no room for one way players, unless you are in the Edmonton Oilers system.

Someone needs to calm the #### down.

[MarkGio]

What happened to Hickey? He was the lone collegiate invite to team Canada WCJ and has been quiet since. There might have been a moment last year where he was the Flames best defensive prospect.

[dying4acup]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

What happened to Hickey? He was the lone collegiate invite to team Canada WCJ and has been quiet since. There might have been a moment last year where he was the Flames best defensive prospect.

He's not shiny and new anymore.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

Also no Mason McDonald, even though he was drafted quite high. Not that it really matters anymore.

Passing up on the #1 ranked goalie for this bum is a rookie GM mistake...oh wait!

Seriously though, I'm still trying to figure out what the scouts saw in McDonald to pick him over Demko. only saving grace is Demko will be ruined by graveyard team for goalies.

[Funkhouser]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

What happened to Hickey? He was the lone collegiate invite to team Canada WCJ and has been quiet since. There might have been a moment last year where he was the Flames best defensive prospect.

I haven't watched any of his games this year but I suspect his somewhat poor showing at the U-20s soured a few scouts on him, as it did for Gilles a couple years ago. Although, looking at his stat line, he has had a pretty unproductive second half.

Between Hickey, Anderson, and Kylington I am confident we have a top 4 D

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Pretty good list, but would Hathaway and Grant not be eligible? Both had a good year and seem to be on the right track.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by T@T

Passing up on the #1 ranked goalie for this bum is a rookie GM mistake...oh wait!

Seriously though, I'm still trying to figure out what the scouts saw in McDonald to pick him over Demko. only saving grace is Demko will be ruined by graveyard team for goalies.

They saw a better skill set? Demko is very lucky that he plays behind a powerhouse college team. He is a good goaltender, but he is not a great goaltender. His stats are grossly inflated by the quality of shots he faces. He sees a ton of perimeter shots and rarely sees a rebound. The defense in front of him is very good in clearing away the junk. I will say that Demko's rebound control is pretty good, but when you are seeing a ton of long shots that don't have a ton of zip on them it is easy to control those rebounds. I wouldn't be any more excited over Demko than I am about McDonald, or vice versa, at this point. Situation is why one guy has great stats versus the other guy who has mediocre stats. But again, it all comes down to looking at the stats and people making assumptions about quality of play and development. People need to watch these guys to see the strengths and weaknesses.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by New Era

They saw a better skill set? Demko is very lucky that he plays behind a powerhouse college team. He is a good goaltender, but he is not a great goaltender. His stats are grossly inflated by the quality of shots he faces. He sees a ton of perimeter shots and rarely sees a rebound. The defense in front of him is very good in clearing away the junk. I will say that Demko's rebound control is pretty good, but when you are seeing a ton of long shots that don't have a ton of zip on them it is easy to control those rebounds. I wouldn't be any more excited over Demko than I am about McDonald, or vice versa, at this point. Situation is why one guy has great stats versus the other guy who has mediocre stats. But again, it all comes down to looking at the stats and people making assumptions about quality of play and development. People need to watch these guys to see the strengths and weaknesses.

Originally Posted by New Era

1. Goaltending - Some good options available via free agency. Not great, but good. The Flames need to tide things over for probably two to three years. I don't think it matters who they bring in, it will be a vast improvement over what we had this year.

In one case (with the goalie in another organization) it seems that Goalie stats and performance are a team thing but in the other hand it is totally the goalies fault on the Flames when the defense does none of the things that make Demko look great.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by T@T

I'm still trying to figure out what the scouts saw in McDonald to pick him over Demko. only saving grace is Demko will be ruined by graveyard team for goalies.

Well what they saw, was an athletic hybrid goalie who needed to work on his technique some that possessed useful natural skills like handling and moving the puck and reading odd-man rushes, versus a butterfly goalie so reliant on the butterfly he was already having hip surgery as a 17 year old.

No one is saying Demko won't be great - he most likely will, but there are different styles of goalies.

Be patient. Ortio's had his ups and downs but you see a lot of where he's got top starter upside in the way he plays (compared to, for instance, Ramo and Hiller) rather than the current effectiveness of how he plays. Brossoit and Gillies are trending well. No reason to write off McDonald while he's actually having a pretty decent season by QMJHL standards, albeit not as good as last year.

It's not a race to the NHL, if Demko makes the NHL two years earlier but McDonald makes the NHL as a better player, that's the important part.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

In one case (with the goalie in another organization) it seems that Goalie stats and performance are a team thing but in the other hand it is totally the goalies fault on the Flames when the defense does none of the things that make Demko look great.

Are you completely off your meds? Those two quotes are addressing completely different questions, but you somehow try and link them to forward some twisted little agenda. Again, if you bothered to watch the games, rather than focus on a bunch of inane fancy stats that you have dreamed up, you would be able to see that our goaltenders let in an inordinate number of goals from low percentage shooting areas. That is not a result of poor defensive coverage, that is a result of bad goaltending. Yes, Demko would be an improvement over our current goaltenders in that regard, but so would McDonald. The Flames defensive coverage has had some challenges this year, but no where near as bad as the goaltending numbers would indicate. Watching the games tells you that.

[MarkGio]

Bill Arnold is ranked too high for my taste. Hamilton and Agostino are performing better in Stockton.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

Bill Arnold is ranked too high for my taste. Hamilton and Agostino are performing better in Stockton.

Based on what exactly?

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by New Era

Based on what exactly?

Stats. Agostino and Hamilton are our most steady offensive players.

Arnold plays Centre and is supposedly a defense first type of player. Tough to see where he's at until he gets a look in the NHL.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

Stats.

That says it all. In that frame of thought, Kyle Wellwood was a much better NHL player than Stephane Yelle. PPG & GPG pretty much seals that argument.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by New Era

That says it all. In that frame of thought, Kyle Wellwood was a much better NHL player than Stephane Yelle. PPG & GPG pretty much seals that argument.

Someone is cranky today. Daylight savings will do that.

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by New Era

They saw a better skill set? Demko is very lucky that he plays behind a powerhouse college team. He is a good goaltender, but he is not a great goaltender. His stats are grossly inflated by the quality of shots he faces. He sees a ton of perimeter shots and rarely sees a rebound. The defense in front of him is very good in clearing away the junk. I will say that Demko's rebound control is pretty good, but when you are seeing a ton of long shots that don't have a ton of zip on them it is easy to control those rebounds. I wouldn't be any more excited over Demko than I am about McDonald, or vice versa, at this point. Situation is why one guy has great stats versus the other guy who has mediocre stats. But again, it all comes down to looking at the stats and people making assumptions about quality of play and development. People need to watch these guys to see the strengths and weaknesses.

This is a great post, and I agree with most of it, but do you really think McDonald is as good of a prospect as Demko?

I think the success of the Broissoit pick may have had an impact on the McDonald pick. Broissoit had poor stats in his draft year, but the Flames took a flyer on him in the 6th. Broissoit seemed to have the natural body-type, athleticism, and opportunities to develop as a prospect. McDonald was in a similar situation.

Broissoit quickly improved within a year of development. The same cannot be said for McDonald, however, the Oil Kings were a much better team than the Charlottetown Islanders.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by New Era

That says it all. In that frame of thought, Kyle Wellwood was a much better NHL player than Stephane Yelle. PPG & GPG pretty much seals that argument.

Does this team really need another option for the 4th line? Agostino has proven that he's more suited to a scoring role than Arnold so it's not hard to see why that decision was made.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Does this team really need another option for the 4th line? Agostino has proven that he's more suited to a scoring role than Arnold so it's not hard to see why that decision was made.

Yes, this team needs another option for the 4th line. You need to keep those players coming through the system. The fact that we are paying $3.125M for our 4th line center is ridiculous. Arnold can do the same job at a fraction of the cost. You want to know why we are thin in top six talent? Because we can't afford to go out and get it because we are paying the likes of Stajan, Bouma, Wideman, Smid and Engelland $15.5M to play in non-impact positions. It is important to have options at every position, especially on the lower lines, so you can pay the real talent the real money.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by New Era

Yes, this team needs another option for the 4th line. You need to keep those players coming through the system. The fact that we are paying $3.125M for our 4th line center is ridiculous. Arnold can do the same job at a fraction of the cost. You want to know why we are thin in top six talent? Because we can't afford to go out and get it because we are paying the likes of Stajan, Bouma, Wideman, Smid and Engelland $15.5M to play in non-impact positions. It is important to have options at every position, especially on the lower lines, so you can pay the real talent the real money.

Yeah but all those guys are on the team right now and there is no proof that Arnold is better than any if them, even if they are grossly overpaid.

I like Arnold but next training camp is going to be huge for him. If he can't find a way onto the team then, I will begin to question whether he ever will.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Yeah but all those guys are on the team right now and there is no proof that Arnold is better than any if them, even if they are grossly overpaid.

I like Arnold but next training camp is going to be huge for him. If he can't find a way onto the team then, I will begin to question whether he ever will.

Those veteran guys are on the team right now because they have one way contracts. It isn't living up to their performance expectations or anything else. It is because of their contract status.