The PK: Coaching vs. Goaltending

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Not a big Ramo fan, but in order to even get to .909 after his horrendous start, he had to play significantly above that. During his "hot" stretch I think he was something like .919.

That said, I think he was regressing back to decidedly average (or below) just before his season ended.

Well he referenced when the Flames were losing ground on a playoff spot with Ramo playing average.

So I don't think he was referring to the hot stretch

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

May I remind you people that even when Ramo was in net for a long stretch playing at least average the team was losing ground on a playoff spot? If one goaltender had a below average SV% and the two others above that's one thing but all three goaltenders are below league average for SV% which points to more of a team issue than individual. A guy like James Reimer isn't going to come in and start stealing victories especially on a team that has the worse combined special teams in the league. Goaltending needs to be addressed but equally important is special teams and defensive play.

Not really true though.

Flames start (3 Gs): 3-9-1
Since Ramo injury: 2-9-1

In between: 22-16-2 .575 PPG

That puts them even with Detroit (15th overall)

[Fan in Exile]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

^None of the above is a systems thing. That is all individual player execution.

Okay then. I guess we replace the goaltending and all the players but the coaching is fine?

[Frank MetaMusil]

Originally Posted by Fan in Exile

Okay then. I guess we replace the goaltending and all the players but the coaching is fine?

He does have a point though. Giordano is a penalty machine this season, which means he's not able to kill penalties. Same goes for Stajan.

[Fan in Exile]

Originally Posted by Frank MetaMusil

He does have a point though. Giordano is a penalty machine this season, which means he's not able to kill penalties. Same goes for Stajan.

Sure, a few changes may have made some minor differences but we have consistently had the worst special teams in the league over 64 games.

Some people never ever want to look at coaching. Some people always blame coaching. Surely there is some reasonable space in between and when your special teams are consistently bad over a period of a complete season or poor to terrible over several seasons with the same coaching staff but with a fairly considerable turnover of personnel, it is definitely the time that coaching got a rigorous assessment.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Well he referenced when the Flames were losing ground on a playoff spot with Ramo playing average.

So I don't think he was referring to the hot stretch

Right, but the .909 is his season average, not his average during that period.

I don't disagree with the premise though, Ramo at his peak this year wasn't anything special. Just better than Ortio and Hiller had been.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Fan in Exile

Sure, a few changes may have made some minor differences but we have consistently had the worst special teams in the league over 64 games.

Some people never ever want to look at coaching. Some people always blame coaching. Surely there is some reasonable space in between and when your special teams are consistently bad over a period of a complete season or poor to terrible over several seasons with the same coaching staff but with a fairly considerable turnover of personnel, it is definitely the time that coaching got a rigorous assessment.

I agree with you here. When Bob Hartley won the Jack Adams he said(paraphrasing) that it is his name on the trophy, but it is a team award in recognition of the entire team. The same way when a team is changing the coaching staff, it is an 'award' that is earned by the entire team. The same thing happens when a goalie gets pulled - someone has to take the blame, in order to keep that players accountable.

Now I am not saying that a coaching change is necessarily the right solution; however, something is definitely getting lost in translation between the message the coaching staff is sending and the results on the ice this season.

[GioforPM]

I think it's both.

[Frank MetaMusil]

Originally Posted by Fan in Exile

Sure, a few changes may have made some minor differences but we have consistently had the worst special teams in the league over 64 games.

Some people never ever want to look at coaching. Some people always blame coaching. Surely there is some reasonable space in between and when your special teams are consistently bad over a period of a complete season or poor to terrible over several seasons with the same coaching staff but with a fairly considerable turnover of personnel, it is definitely the time that coaching got a rigorous assessment.

I'm definitely not opposed to coaching criticism. It's frustrating as a fan when management allows an underachieving staff to coach out their contract.

I had the exact same mentality with Hartley's predecessor. 3 full seasons, zero playoff games, zero series wins. Hell, those teams even had a bonafide #1 in Kiprusoff.

I can't pile on the fire Hartley wagon yet, the Flames series victory over the Canucks bought a lot of goodwill with me.

[habernac]

Look at the Habs pre-Price injury. They looked like world beaters. Insert rookie backup and the entire thing goes to hell. That team isn't nearly as bad as their record shows.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Not really true though.

Flames start (3 Gs): 3-9-1
Since Ramo injury: 2-9-1

In between: 22-16-2 .575 PPG

That puts them even with Detroit (15th overall)

Yeah but that in-between had that record home winning streak and it still wasn't good enough to gain any ground on a playoff spot as I believe when Ramo got injured they were 26th overall after briefly being back in the playoff race at the ending of the hot streak so they were falling off the pace.

[Fan in Exile]

Originally Posted by Frank MetaMusil

I'm definitely not opposed to coaching criticism. It's frustrating as a fan when management allows an underachieving staff to coach out their contract.

I had the exact same mentality with Hartley's predecessor. 3 full seasons, zero playoff games, zero series wins. Hell, those teams even had a bonafide #1 in Kiprusoff.

I can't pile on the fire Hartley wagon yet, the Flames series victory over the Canucks bought a lot of goodwill with me.

I hear you. I can see why Hartley deserves some goodwill and some slack. But I can't agree with anyone not seeing a problem with the coaching when it comes to special teams play.

Notwithstanding that goaltending makes a significant difference and some personnel maturation or changes may also improve special teams, there are definitely some systems issues and coaching that comes into play. Hartley and his staff deserve some scrutiny and criticism.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Fan in Exile

I hear you. I can see why Hartley deserves some goodwill and some slack. But I can't agree with anyone not seeing a problem with the coaching when it comes to special teams play.

Notwithstanding that goaltending makes a significant difference and some personnel maturation or changes may also improve special teams, there are definitely some systems issues and coaching that comes into play. Hartley and his staff deserve some scrutiny and criticism.

IMO the biggest PK issues are the cross ice passes that are getting through and the wide open high slot players.

Powerplay - I've got no ideas. They look great at moments (like that 5 touch goal against Ottawa I think) and then terrible otherwise. Zone entries, and puck retrieval are issues.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Yeah but that in-between had that record home winning streak and it still wasn't good enough to gain any ground on a playoff spot as I believe when Ramo got injured they were 26th overall after briefly being back in the playoff race at the ending of the hot streak so they were falling off the pace.

Whatever the other teams did during this stretch doesn't matter. If the Flames played at that pace all year, they would end up with around 93 points which would be good enough to make the playoffs most years.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Whatever the other teams did during this stretch doesn't matter. If the Flames played at that pace all year, they would end up with around 93 points which would be good enough to make the playoffs most years.

Well it does if you are going to cherry pick a teams best stretch of hockey during the season and pro-rate that 82 games as most teams would end up well above 93 points if you took their best stretch of games and pro-rated it over the season so that 93 points would be well shy of the playoffs. The point is the team was playing mediocre before the winning streak and after the winning streak reverted to mediocre play. Really the only thing that home winning streak did for them was keep them out of 30th as outside of that streak they have been the worst team in the league this season.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

IMO the biggest PK issues are the cross ice passes that are getting through and the wide open high slot players.

Which can't all be the goalie's fault for sure, he has to move too much.

But additionally can't see it as coaching either, since that's pretty much PK 101. Make a box and keep it to the outside. Nobody would coach anything but that.

Differences are in exchanges (when you leave the box), or how hard you pressure the puck carrier, or what you do when the puck's up the ice.

But I can't see any one in the Flame's room uttering "and if a guy gets inside the box and goes to the slot, just leave him. Don't give him a second thought".

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Which can't all be the goalie's fault for sure, he has to move too much.

But additionally can't see it as coaching either, since that's pretty much PK 101. Make a box and keep it to the outside. Nobody would coach anything but that.

Differences are in exchanges (when you leave the box), or how hard you pressure the puck carrier, or what you do when the puck's up the ice.

But I can't see any one in the Flame's room uttering "and if a guy gets inside the box and goes to the slot, just leave him. Don't give him a second thought".

But player selection and blue line strategies as well as puck retrieval strategies are PK coaching problems. It's too bad we don't have zone entry data, but the opposing team is given the blue line every time while the box retreats. It's so annoying. I bet successful zone entries allowed are triple what zone entries for on the PP are. It's awful and that's on Bob

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Well it does if you are going to cherry pick a teams best stretch of hockey during the season and pro-rate that 82 games as most teams would end up well above 93 points if you took their best stretch of games and pro-rated it over the season so that 93 points would be well shy of the playoffs. The point is the team was playing mediocre before the winning streak and after the winning streak reverted to mediocre play. Really the only thing that home winning streak did for them was keep them out of 30th as outside of that streak they have been the worst team in the league this season.

It's you that's cherry picking.

The Flames DID gain on a playoff spot during the streak. And in fact got themselves into a playoff spot. That's a pretty impressive run from where they were.

But more importantly, I wasn't cherry picking, I posted the entire stretch of 40 games.

That's half a season where, when they had decent (far from great) goaltending, they played at a pace that would make them a playoff team.

Pretty straight-forward.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

It's you that's cherry picking.

The Flames DID gain on a playoff spot during the streak. And in fact got themselves into a playoff spot. That's a pretty impressive run from where they were.

But more importantly, I wasn't cherry picking, I posted the entire stretch of 40 games.

That's half a season where, when they had decent (far from great) goaltending, they played at a pace that would make them a playoff team.

Pretty straight-forward.

That's still cherry picking. You can find an oilers 30 game stretch that makes the playoffs, or a Toronto stretch that gets close. Every team has good stretches. Playoff teams don't have terrible stretches and are better more often. You can't take segments, that's the very definition of cherry picking

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

That's still cherry picking. You can find an oilers 30 game stretch that makes the playoffs, or a Toronto stretch that gets close. Every team has good stretches. Playoff teams don't have terrible stretches and are better more often. You can't take segments, that's the very definition of cherry picking

The conversation was about decent goaltending and how we played under Ramo.

I posted the entire 40 game stretch between the 3-headed start and his injury.

I didn't just pick a hot stretch or a cold stretch.