The Defence Thread - Discussion, Speculation, and Pairings

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I would be happy with any other permutations of:

Gio-Brodie
Schlemko-Hamilton
Jokipakka-Nakladal

Brodie-Demers
Gio-Hamilton
Jokipakka-Wideman

Demers is likely to get a decent contract. But if Schlemko doesn't have a home early on, I hope the Flames at least extend him a PTO.

[MisterJoji]

TOP PAIR
Gio - Brodie: obvious.

MIDDLE PAIR
Hamilton - ___________: no one we currently have is a true legit top 4 defenseman. I see Wideman as a bottom pair guy that is a PP specialist.

BOTTOM PAIR
Jokipakka - Wideman/Engelland/Smid: take your pick. Too many bottom pairing guys eating too much salary. Jokipakka should be cemented here. Young, capable and low salary. Wideman is damn near unmovable and not a great buyout candidate so he would be the obvious choice, but Smid and Engelland provide a physical element he doesn't. If Smid is on the LTIR that takes him out of the equation and leaves Engelland as the #7, alternating with Wideman as needed.

EXTRAS
Nakladal/Wotherspoon/prospects: I put Nakladal here because he's a UFA and I'm not sure if he'll be back or not, but I like his game. If he re-signs he could also be in the #6/7 mix. Same with Wotherspoon. I don't see any of the prospects developed enough to provide anything more than what the guys ahead of them already bring. I'd love it if one of them came into camp and stole a spot but I don't see it happening yet. We're really going need a few of these guys to develop into legit NHLers.

In a perfect world one of Wideman or Engelland would be traded and one of the prospects surprises the hell out of us and provides us with that middle partner for Hamilton. However, it's far more likely, Wideman will be forced into the #4 spot and Engelland/Smid/Nakladal/Wotherspoon will fight it out for the #6/7 spot. Another option would be to get a serviceable #4 on the UFA market for a decent contract (Goligoski? Yandle?) but that too is unlikely. More than likely it will require Treliving to work his magic and acquire one via trade. Although getting a goaltender is obviously a more pressing need currently.

[Mattman]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

One thing to consider however, is Wideman willing to waive his NMC in order to go to a team where he'd have a bigger role?

It's going to be an important year for him, he's going to want to get another decent contract and he'd be better off playing huge minutes (especially on the PP).

Toronto comes to mind.

1. Young defense, lack veterans
2. Lack RH defense
3. He's from the area

Someone said it earlier that Wideman would probably want to escape the spotlight and not go under-the-microscope in a city like Toronto.

I don't think he'd have a hard time at cracking their top 4, but it is all up to him on where he wants to do that for some of his last years in the league.

[blender]

Not too sure about anointing Jokipakka as a #4 quite yet. Hopefully he can be that player, but maybe we should pump the brakes on that one.

Would hate to see this place turn on him if he tops out as a 5/6 guy!

[flamesforcup]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I would be happy with any other permutations of:

Gio-Brodie
Schlemko-Hamilton
Jokipakka-Nakladal

Gio-Brodie
Campbell-Hamilton
Wotherspoon-Nakladal

Brodie-Demers
Gio-Hamilton
Jokipakka-Wideman

Gio-Brodie
Kulak-Hamilton
Jokipakka-Nakladal

Gio-Brodie
Jokipakka-Hamilton
Kulak-Engelland

Gio-Brodie
Jokipakka-Hamilton
Wotherspoon-Wideman

Brodie-Hamilton
Gio-Nakladal
Kulak-Engelland

Gio-Hamilton
Brodie-Wideman
Wotherspoon-Nakladal

As our top 6 next year.

This team needs to try something different. Anything.

we need to get rid of 3 of our bottom pair dman and go from there. I think demers is interesting a defensive dman like him would compliment gio or brodie nicely and we can see brodie play the left side. Also like the idea of campbell.

[Strange Brew]

Only way Wideman gets traded before next years deadline is an equally bad expiring contract coming back IMO.

This team needs to add a solid top four defenseman for next year. Hamilton and Engelland would be horrible. Maybe a veteran on a shorter term deal if possible. It doesn't seem anyone in the system is ready for top 4 for another 2 years.

[djsFlames]

Most ideal scenario?

Out (trade/buyout): Wideman, Engelland
In: Hamonic

Giordano - Brodie
Hamonic - Hamilton
Jokipakka - Nakladal
Wotherspoon

Smid (LTIR or retirement)

[dammage79]

My Ideal top 6 next year:

Gio-Brodie
Wotherspoon-Hamilton
Nakladal-Jokipakka

I really do not think you need to add. Just need to clear Engelland, Wideman and maybe ride Smid as the 7th. He might be only good for a handful of games from now on.

[GoJetsGo]

^ I like Wortherspoon but it's debatable he's ready for the bottom pairing never mind top four minutes

[Poe969]

I think the flames need to find a way to: get hamonic, get rid of Engeland, and put smid on ltir or retire.

Gio-Brodie
Hamonic-Hamilton
Jokipakka-Wideman

Shelter the hell out of wideman and make him a pp specialist and boost his trade value. At the deadline if the flames are out, someone will want him for a playoff run and actually give something of value for him. Paying to get rid of him now would be a mistake. Heck, maybe the islanders would take him as part of the hamonic return and we could keep Engeland in the lineup...

[CalgaryFan1988]

Hamonic plays the right side, as does Hamilton. I just don't see a fit. I wouldn't throw assets at him, only to find out he can't play the left side.

I think Engelland is the ideal 7D who can also play RW. I remember reading he doesn't like to play RW, but I think I'd have him on the 4th line RW role in the event of an injury.

Giordano - Brodie
Jokipakka - Hamilton
Wotherspoon - Nakladal

Need to unload Wideman and start filling the many (3) holes in the top two forward lines.

[Super-Rye]

Assuming Wideman gets traded for another bad contract, and Smid finishes his career on the LTIR I would be more than happy with:

Gio - Brodie
Jokipakka - Hamilton
Wotherspoon - Nakladal
Engelland

That's probably a more versatile group then they had coming into this season.

While I would be happy with that, I still feel like they're missing a guy who can play top 4 minutes with Hamilton. Guys like Jokipakka and Wotherspoon may grow into that role but there could be some growing pains.

I wonder if the Flames will try to build a package containing Wotherspoon (probably not THE piece in a deal, but a piece most likely) to bring in a top 4 D. Hamonic is likely to be moved in the off-season and on paper looks like the perfect fit.

[Da_Chief]

I'd like to see the top pairing broken up as an experiment.

Brodie-Hamilton
Gio-Nakladal
Kevin-Engelland

For few games and see how they fare.

Right now it's not working so Hartley and co. please try something else. Stop trotting out Engelland out there for 20 minutes a night (a guy who was in and out of the lineup all year). Gio-Brodie are struggling recently, getting tired. Hamilton is not playing well with Engelland, try something else for crying out loud.

It is OK to try something new.

[PeteMoss]

Unless you think you're going to be a contender next year - you keep Wideman, give him PP time to attempt build up his value prior to the trade deadline and then move him.

Someone who's semi comparable to Wideman is James Wisniewski. He's got a terrible contract. But at last trade deadline the Jackets got a prospect and a 2nd round pick (plus Rene Bourque) for him. The Ducks traded him this off-season for Khodobin straight up. Khodobin's been terrible this year, but he had some value last year.

Defenseman who can put up points and play a regular shift have value. Buying him out would be terrible asset management.

[Imported_Aussie]

I agree that you keep Wideman and try to rehab his value.
But if you assume he is the 3rd pair right D, with Hamilton on the second pairing, you then have to play one of Jokipakka, Engelland, or if re-signed Nakladal/Wotherspoon at the #4.
It would not be a "true" #4 as Wideman would get farmed a lot of PP minutes and that top trio would get a lot of minutes when the matchups can be managed at stoppages, but that defenceman would still get put out there on line changes against good opposition, as it is safer to expose that pairing than Wideman.
I would probably opt for Jokipakka with Hamilton as I feel he is the best fit in terms of activating Hamilton's strengths - he is responsible, plays more defensively allowing Hamilton to join the rush, and would mean that this pairing is a "big" pairing - they may not play the body, but they are still tougher to push around.

Giordano - Brodie
Jokipakka - Hamilton
Nakladal/Wotherspoon/Kulak - Wideman
Engelland

Smid = LTIR

You go into camp with a spot up for grabs and see who gets it - then you seek a trade/waive the guys who cannot make it, or if you consider 8D 13F for your 21 skaters, since in a pinch, Engelland could play RW


The only reason you buy out Wideman IMO is if you feel he will not appeal to anyone in a trade - as in this incident has made him "toxic". I doubt that is the case, as his character has never been questioned before this, but if you feel there will never be a market to trade, and retaining him makes it harder to ice the D corps you want, it is a consideration.

Since it is likely that Raymond is bought out, he would have a buyout cap hit of
2016/17 = 1.05M
2017/18 = 1.05M

Whereas Wideman would have:
2016/17 = 1.25M
2017/18 = 2M

If you consider buying out both to be impractical, then that generates a couple of options:

Option A = keep Wideman and buyout Raymond
2016/17 = 6.3M with only Wideman on roster
2017/18 = 1.05M in dead money

Option B = keep and bury Raymond, buyout Wideman
2016/17 = 3.5M + cost of replacement player on roster
2017/18 = 2M in dead money

When you look at it like that, buying out Wideman is an option if you don't want to risk carrying him, and if you feel you will need the cap space in 2016/17 until Engelland and Smid are off the books. Even if Smid is on LTIR, it still complicates the cap situation. The difference between option A and B in 2017/18 is the cost of a max ELC

[Flash Walken]

i can't see the Flames buying out both Raymond AND Wideman in the same offseason and Raymond is by far the more likely buyout candidate.

Wideman will be on the roster next year and it wouldn't surprise me if he has a good year in terms of point production as he will be playing to stay in the league at that point.

[Itse]

On Smid, Wideman and Engelland:

Yup, that's too many depth veterans on the blueline, not something we really need at this point. Keeping some of them is okay (injuries happen etc), keeping all of them would create a real logjam.

We're not contenders next year so I don't really care much which guy we keep. The same reasons people want to keep Engelland are exactly the reasons why he might actually have some value in a trade.

[Duke43]

Can Nakladal be sent to the AHL when Wideman (he who skates too long in one spot) returns. Thought that I read or heard yesterday that he could not be returned. Just asking!

[IgiTang]

I know I'm in the minority here, but I'm not completely sold on Wotherspoon quite yet.

I see him making high risk passes out of the zone and a bit resistant to play a heavy game.

He's come a far far way since last season and since training camp. He could absolutely establish himself as a full time NHL'er, but I feel he could regress just as easily.

I like the size of Jokipakka, Nakladal seems to have all the tools of a solid 2-way guy. With his age, maybe he's a bit more able to handle top 4 mins but is looking like an ideal bottom 6 guy with 2nd unit PP time.

I don't know if there is a team out there with better Defensive depth on the farm and in the system.

The way I see it when it comes to guys not named Brodie, Gio and Hamilton is this.

Ready Now -

Nakladal
Jokipakka

Next year NHL ready - full-time

Wotherspoon

2 years away -

Kulak
Seiloff(think he will be an NHL'er, real good camp)
Kylington
Morrison

3 years -

Rafikov
Ollas-mattson
Andersson
Kanzig (maybe, tearing it up with the Hitmen)

The Flames are still 2 years away from being a constant playoff threat IMO.

I think BT needs to start looking at moving some of the D prospects out as they become more NHL ready. There are a lot of teams out there with really poor Defensive depth in their system.

As much fun as watching our Dmen wheel and deal from the back end, we need at least 2 Dmen who are going to make guys pay the price for going to the net.

Out of all of these guys, only 3 or 4 of them play a mean, punishing game.

The only one that is NHL caliber is Engalland ATM.

I hope Jokippaka developes this part of his game.

At the end of the day, I would like Naks re-upped, Jokippaka hold that #5 spot, possibly #4, but keep that #6 spot to rotate Wotherspoon, Kulak, Seiloff, Kylington and Morrison.

Showcase these guys well and move a few of them out to round out the forwards and find a goalie.

But that's 8-10 guys for 3 spots. We likely have the guys for 2 of those 3 spots, so one spot remains for seeing what we actually have of the remaing 8 guys over the next 2-3 years.

And then we still have Engalland, Smid(likely done), Wideman.

[JJ1532]

Originally Posted by Mattman

Someone said it earlier that Wideman would probably want to escape the spotlight and not go under-the-microscope in a city like Toronto.

I don't think he'd have a hard time at cracking their top 4, but it is all up to him on where he wants to do that for some of his last years in the league.

I think Toronto would a decent place for him. Whilst I'm sure they aren't projecting to be as bad as this season, they won't be play off material or anything close to it. That lack of pressure and expectation should help. He should get decent ice time and prominent role, which is something he probably won't get here or with plenty of other teams. He'll get to play for a decent coach and if he has a good year(which he should be aiming for given his expiring contract), Toronto can use him as a trade bait piece at the deadline.

As for us, we get rid of his huge contract and can use the money better elsewhere. However, the 2 big issues are: I doubt Toronto are interested in taking him and I doubt he'll want to waive to go to a team that isn't likely to be anywhere near the play offs. I do think it makes sense though, just can't see it ever happening.