[GDT] Flames @ Bruins. 5pm MT SNF

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by devo22

Exactly, and that's why scratching Wotherspoon and/or Nakladal (and I have zero doubt they'll both sit once Wideman is back) serves no purpose at all. If you want to know whether they have a future in this organization, you play them ... you don't scratch them for vets who are gone after next season in either case. The Flames have NOTHING on the line. I'd rather see Wotherspoon and Nakladal in each game than both Engelland and Wideman log 20+ minutes.

I would too. But we don't always get what we want. In this case Engelland is our only defenseman that plays a physical, defensive style and because of that IMO he's unlikely to get sat the rest of this season. He's having a good year as well. It's unfair to him to sit him when he's playing well and filling his role.

I think Wotherspoon and Nakladal have already gotten enough ice time to show management what they are about. Would I love to see them more? Sure. Now Jokipakka is going to get some time as well.

One thing I don't think fans consider enough is that while the Flames don't have anything on the line, they still want to ice their most competitive team because other teams do have a lot on the line right now. How unfair would it be if we scratch a bunch of vets for rookies vs one team in a playoff race and then do the opposite vs another team in a playoff race? The only time we can really get away with icing an inferior team is vs another team guaranteed to miss the playoffs (like BUF on thurs).

I suspect we'll see Bob Hartley ice his best lineup vs teams still in the playoff race. Vs other tanking teams is when we might consider sitting a veteran for a rookie.

[FanIn80]

I'm just happy I don't have to hear "Wahtherspoon" 20 more times tonight.

It's "Wuhtherspoon," dammit.

[MoreDrank]

nvm

[Pierre "Monster" McGuire]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

I'm just happy I don't have to hear "Wahtherspoon" 20 more times tonight.

It's "Wuhtherspoon," dammit.

It is WAH-therspoon, unfortunately. That's how Tyler pronounces it himself.

But I pronounce it WUH-therspoon because it's pretty punk rock to do so.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Who crushed multiple Flyers last game? Engelland.

We lost last game.

Throw the possession metrics out for a second and look at the makeup of our defense. It is a little lacking in the physical, defensive defensemen.

So is Chicago's.

Yes Engelland was playing in over his head in the top 4. Doesn't mean he should suddenly be a scratch.

Then he should be dropped down to 3rd pair and someone else tried on the 2nd pair. Whatever Hartley is doing right now is not working. We've won a single game (VAN) this season with Engelland in our top 4 and that was a game where Engelland was still a minus.

Arguably we're shorter on that role then we should be. You can't scratch a guy when he's the only player filling that important role on the team.

Sure you can. There are successful teams in the NHL who don't have a single Top 6 player playing that role.

I'm not saying that role is obsolete but you have to have your six best defensemen out on the ice, you can't let "roles" preside over "usefulness in scoring and preventing goals" that's exactly how you become the Leafs teams that Burke left behind in shambles. The ghost roster concept is not how you build teams in a cap world.

Originally Posted by FanIn80

I'm just happy I don't have to hear "Wahtherspoon" 20 more times tonight.

It's "Wuhtherspoon," dammit.

Pretty sure it's pronounced Witherspoon.

[codynw]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Pretty sure it's pronounced Witherspoon.

I shall call him Spoonzy to avoid any confusion.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by codynw

I shall call him Spoonzy to avoid any confusion.

Or weatherspoon

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

We lost last game.

What's the point? We're going to lose a lot of games down the stretch. It won't be Engelland's fault exclusively will it?

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Then he should be dropped down to 3rd pair and someone else tried on the 2nd pair. Whatever Hartley is doing right now is not working. We've won a single game (VAN) this season with Engelland in our top 4 and that was a game where Engelland was still a minus.

Agreed. I'd like Wotherspoon or Jokipakka to try and play with Hamilton. Dropping Engelland out of the top 4 and scratching him aren't the same thing.

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Sure you can. There are successful teams in the NHL who don't have a single Top 6 player playing that role.

In our division? Engelland is probably the only player on our team who has the strength and mass to even think about hitting/moving guys from the front of the net like Perry, Getzlaf, Lucic, Kopitar, Thornton, Ward, Kesler, etc. We struggle against big, cycling teams as it is. Removing the only guy who can physically attempt to disrupt the cycle isn't a winning idea long term IMO.

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I'm not saying that role is obsolete but you have to have your six best defensemen out on the ice, you can't let "roles" preside over "usefulness in scoring and preventing goals" that's exactly how you become the Leafs teams that Burke left behind in shambles. The ghost roster concept is not how you build teams in a cap world.

I think you underestimate the physical defensive defensemen role in the NHL. Not surprising given your emphasis on numbers and how poor the possession metrics usually are for that type of player. Just the other day I saw someone try to argue Marc Staal wasn't very good because of his metrics but he's a great defensive defensemen who you can win with in this league. Darryl Sutter wanted MORE physical, defensive defensemen so they picked up Luke Schenn for him.

Roles and usefulness in preventing goals are very much related. I'm just surprised you don't see the obvious link between dressing physical defensive defensemen and trying to prevent goals scored by big, strong forwards.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

What's the point? We're going to lose a lot of games down the stretch. It won't be Engelland's fault exclusively will it?

Engelland's physicality didn't win us the game. Nothing else he did on the ice helped us. I don't believe in moral victories but I way outplaying the other team in a loss ahead of out-physicalling the other team in a loss. There have been great, soft teams and terrible, tough teams. I'd rather be a great, tough team but I way the great part ahead of the tough part.

Agreed. I'd like Wotherspoon or Jokipakka to try and play with Hamilton. Dropping Engelland out of the top 4 and scratching him aren't the same thing.

The problem is, Engelland-Nakladal will likely just be an awful pairing if Engelland-WIdeman has shown us anything. And Nakladal is way more useful to us right now on the bottom pair. It's not always about a player playing badly and deserving to sit, it's about which six players give us the best chance to win.

Removing the only guy who can physically attempt to disrupt the cycle isn't a winning idea long term IMO.

Are we watching the same Engelland? When does Engelland disrupt the cycle? He's practically a 4th forward for the other team on the cycle. Giordano disrupts the cycle. Wideman even disrupts the cycle, though he's kind of got low IQ. Brodie disrupts the cycle. Hamilton disrupts the cycle. Engelland contributes to the cycle.

I think you underestimate the physical defensive defensemen role in the NHL.

When Smid was playing well this season, I was proposing Smid be tried ahead of Russell in our top 4. I'm not against physical defensive defensemen and yes I'm aware they're not going to have ideal possession stats. I want nothing more than for Pat Sieloff to "click" and be our #4, he's exactly what we need. But being a physical defensive defenseman isn't an excuse for being devoid of a functional breakout pass.

Not surprising given your emphasis on numbers and how poor the possession metrics usually are for that type of player. Just the other day I saw someone try to argue Marc Staal wasn't very good because of his metrics but he's a great defensive defensemen who you can win with in this league.

That, or he's a terrible defensive defenseman standing in front of Henrik Lundqvist, and would be out of the league in front of an average goalie.

Roles and usefulness in preventing goals are very much related. I'm just surprised you don't see the obvious link between dressing physical defensive defensemen and trying to prevent goals scored by big, strong forwards.

I believe in having a capable crease clearer. But I believe in capable as the important part because without that it's just a matter of "when" not "if".

Balance is good on every roster. But give me a Brian Campbell type over a Deryk Engelland any day. I value players who can break up the cycle with their stickwork and then get the puck out of the D-zone quickly ahead of players who constantly give the puck away in the D-zone and rely on their goalie to stand on his head.

In our division? Engelland is probably the only player on our team who has the strength and mass to even think about hitting/moving guys from the front of the net like Perry, Getzlaf, Lucic, Kopitar, Thornton, Ward, Kesler, etc. We struggle against big, cycling teams as it is.

Engelland aesthetically may resembles some of those players, but guys like Stoner, Braun, Despres, McNabb etc are just much more effective for their teams. He isn't a solution. At least not in Hartley's system, maybe he's a solution in a better system but that's not this one, and Hartley isn't about to change his system.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

I'm just happy I don't have to hear "Wahtherspoon" 20 more times tonight.

It's "Wuhtherspoon," dammit.

Originally Posted by Pierre "Monster" McGuire

It is WAH-therspoon, unfortunately. That's how Tyler pronounces it himself.

But I pronounce it WUH-therspoon because it's pretty punk rock to do so.

Originally Posted by codynw

I shall call him Spoonzy to avoid any confusion.

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Or weatherspoon

Just stick to this when talking about Wotherspoon.

[tvp2003]

If it goes to a shootout I hope Jyrki gets a shot. He's even wearing Schlemko's old #3. One of the best games of the season last year.

[HermMunster]

Originally Posted by tvp2003

He's even wearing Schlemko's old #3.

Something I never thought I would read. Ever

[loob job]

I must admit I am in full tank mode. I want us to lose three out of every four so we can hopefully get a top three pick. I love the Flames but a top three pick added to our core of young good players with the hope that BT can do something with all our seconds this year has me salivating. 20 games of pain for years of gain.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by loob job

I must admit I am in full tank mode. I want us to lose three out of every four so we can hopefully get a top three pick. I love the Flames but a top three pick added to our core of young good players with the hope that BT can do something with all our seconds this year has me salivating. 20 games of pain for years of gain.

[jaikorven]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Just stick to this when talking about Wotherspoon.

This is what I always think of myself...big show when my kids were small.

[neo45]

Engelland was our second best defender last night after Hamilton.


Anyone else notice Hamilton seems to play really well against star players? There were a couple times against Giroux last night where he really impressed me, but occasionally a fourth line guy will go hard to the net and Dougie just lets him

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by neo45

Anyone else notice Hamilton seems to play really well against star players? There were a couple times against Giroux last night where he really impressed me, but occasionally a fourth line guy will go hard to the net and Dougie just lets him

Hamilton plays well against the East in general. He's got the book on East players.

[Red]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

We lost last game.



So is Chicago's.



Then he should be dropped down to 3rd pair and someone else tried on the 2nd pair. Whatever Hartley is doing right now is not working. We've won a single game (VAN) this season with Engelland in our top 4 and that was a game where Engelland was still a minus.



Sure you can. There are successful teams in the NHL who don't have a single Top 6 player playing that role.

I'm not saying that role is obsolete but you have to have your six best defensemen out on the ice, you can't let "roles" preside over "usefulness in scoring and preventing goals" that's exactly how you become the Leafs teams that Burke left behind in shambles. The ghost roster concept is not how you build teams in a cap world.



Pretty sure it's pronounced Witherspoon.

Chicago has a large and pretty tough D core. Not sure what you are talking about.

[Benched]

Originally Posted by loob job

I must admit I am in full tank mode. I want us to lose three out of every four so we can hopefully get a top three pick. I love the Flames but a top three pick added to our core of young good players with the hope that BT can do something with all our seconds this year has me salivating. 20 games of pain for years of gain.

it's not popular, but I agree.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

So is Chicago's.

Hjalmarsson is one of the best physical defensive defensemen in the entire league. A very underrated part of the reason why they are successful.

We badly need a player like Hjalmarsson. Add that and a real goalie and suddenly most of our problems would be gone.