Why Erik Karlsson should win the Hart - Page 3 - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

TheOnlyBilko · 01-12-2016, 03:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

His team is miles worse without him.

How can you say or know this when he hasn't missed a game in almost 3 years?

Tinordi · 01-12-2016, 04:56 AM

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Originally Posted by Enoch Root

A case could be made for Brodie beingg as important to the Flames as Karlsson is to the Sens.

Ok lets hear it.

Enoch Root · 01-12-2016, 11:29 AM

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Originally Posted by BigTuna

Ridiculous.

Yes you are

Enoch Root · 01-12-2016, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Ok lets hear it.

.222 WP without him (historically bad)
.563 with him (playoff pace)

Hard zone starts and hardest competition, yet has top relative corsi and 2nd on the team in PPG.

He drives the Flames' offense (along with Gaudreau)

And they struggle mightily without him - offensively, and defensively.

(that's kind of what 'important to your team' means)

SuperMatt18 · 01-12-2016, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I'm on the fence with Karlsson. I do think he's the best offensive defenseman in the league but I feel guys like Webber, Doughty, Keith, and Suter put up solid offensive numbers while doing more heavy lifting in their own end.

In year's past I bought this argument but Karlsson is playing over 30 minutes a game this year.

You can't hide a player and manage them when they are playing that much. He does get strong % of offensive zone starts still but he is still facing tough competition in that time.

He is putting up the points and doing a lot of the heavy lifting this year.

Not sure why Ovechkin is the other option here either. The guy who leads the Art Ross race by 9 points would likely be the other option at this point, and he is only 1 goal back of Ovechkin.

Enoch Root · 01-12-2016, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

In year's past I bought this argument but Karlsson is playing over 30 minutes a game this year.

You can't hide a player and manage them when they are playing that much. He does get strong % of offensive zone starts still but he is still facing tough competition in that time.

He is putting up the points and doing a lot of the heavy lifting this year.

Not sure why Ovechkin is the other option here either. The guy who leads the Art Ross race by 9 points would likely be the other option at this point, and he is only 1 goal back of Ovechkin.

His minutes are up, and they are a worse team. Coincidence?

When Brodie plays 30 minutes, the Flames are usually better for it.

billybob123 · 01-12-2016, 01:50 PM

Have people seen the flaming pile of garbage that is the Senators' defense beyond Karlsson and Methot? Second pairing now has Methot to settle Ceci down. Karlsson playing with Claesson (AHL callup in his first few NHL games) and then down the toilet to Borowiecki and Wiercioch. They had Jared Cowen playing big minutes until coming to their senses.

Senators defense is terribad. Karlsson needs to play 30 minutes unfortunately, seeing as how beyond Methot and possibly Ceci, you are scraping the bottom of the barrel. To the point of wood shavings on defense.

No wonder Anderson sees 30+ shots a night.

codynw · 01-12-2016, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Not sure why Ovechkin is the other option here either. The guy who leads the Art Ross race by 9 points would likely be the other option at this point, and he is only 1 goal back of Ovechkin.

Ovechkin isn't even leading his own team in points. Backstrom is, despite having less games played.

BigTuna · 01-12-2016, 02:40 PM

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Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Yes you are

Your claim is more of a homer statement than I've ever made.

BigTuna · 01-12-2016, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

His minutes are up, and they are a worse team. Coincidence?

When Brodie plays 30 minutes, the Flames are usually better for it.

Might want to check that again. Ottawa got hot near the end of the season. This time last year they were not in a playoff spot.

Flash Walken · 01-12-2016, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

It does raise the question of what a defenceman has to do to win the Hart. A defenceman has won it once in the last 43 years. Then you look at the Conn Smythe - defencemen have won 4 times in the last 15 years. Seem defencemen are in fact pretty key to winning the Stanley Cup. And yet they're never league MVP. Doesn't make any sense to me.

Most people who watch hockey have no idea how to quantify defensive contributions, and that includes and may be particularly prominent among hockey journalists who watch hockey to look for story content and not to evaluate on ice play.

SuperMatt18 · 01-12-2016, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

His minutes are up, and they are a worse team. Coincidence?

When Brodie plays 30 minutes, the Flames are usually better for it.

I would say it's just a coincidence.

Bigger reason for their drop likely has to goaltending. They ranked 4th in Save Percentage as a team last year, and are now ranked 16th in Save Percentage this year.

Dropping 12 places in the league ranking is a pretty significant drop.

Similar to how the Flames went from 16th last year to 30th this year, and are in a worse position because of it.

BigTuna · 01-12-2016, 03:12 PM

Craig Anderson is very good every two years. This is his off-year.

Tinordi · 01-12-2016, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

.222 WP without him (historically bad)
.563 with him (playoff pace)

Hard zone starts and hardest competition, yet has top relative corsi and 2nd on the team in PPG.

He drives the Flames' offense (along with Gaudreau)

And they struggle mightily without him - offensively, and defensively.

(that's kind of what 'important to your team' means)

Ok you make the argument that Brodie is important to the flames, you do not make the argument that he's more important than Karlsson.

Realistically, Karlsson will win another Norris trophy and deservedly so this year. You'd need to somehow explain how Brodie is more important to his team than the Norris winner.

For the record, I love Brodie but I also recognize that he's not as good as Karlsson.

Huntingwhale · 01-12-2016, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigTuna

Craig Anderson is very good every two years. This is his off-year.

It's so weird how he is like that. He'll be a top 10 guy one season. Then the next he looks washed up. I haven't seen a player go hot/cold season after season like he does.

Enoch Root · 01-12-2016, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Ok you make the argument that Brodie is important to the flames, you do not make the argument that he's more important than Karlsson.

Realistically, Karlsson will win another Norris trophy and deservedly so this year. You'd need to somehow explain how Brodie is more important to his team than the Norris winner.

For the record, I love Brodie but I also recognize that he's not as good as Karlsson.

No, someone else needs to prove that Karlsson does more for his team than Brodie does.

Winning the Norris doesn't prove his value to his team, its an individual award.

I have shown that Brodie's presence is important for the Flames. I've yet to see anyone prove Karlsson's presence is as important to the Sens. And his increased ice-time, resulting in worse team-play ,would suggest the opposite.

Samonadreau · 01-12-2016, 11:44 PM

If Burns passes Karlsson in points does does he still have a case for Norris or Hart? I would say no. Just hypothetical at this point.

sharkov · 01-13-2016, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samonadreau

If Burns passes Karlsson in points does does he still have a case for Norris or Hart? I would say no. Just hypothetical at this point.

Brent Burns is a double digit minus. Even being a minus 3 killed weber's chance at the Norris in 2012

BigTuna · 01-13-2016, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

It's so weird how he is like that. He'll be a top 10 guy one season. Then the next he looks washed up. I haven't seen a player go hot/cold season after season like he does.

He's been like that since he was in Florida. It's like clockwork. Every two years he's elite.

The Sens are basically making the playoffs whenever he has his great season.

BACKCHECK!!! · 01-13-2016, 09:19 AM

He deserves a Hart a lot more than he deserves a Norris.

If you're not on the ice to kill a 5-on-3, then the coach isn't "managing your minutes", you're just not the best all-round defenceman NHL.

Karlsson is a great player, no question, and I have no issue with him being in the Hart conversation. I'm just sick of the Norris going to whoever scores the most points East of Chicago.