Russian SU-24 shot down by Turkey.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Seems like an overreaction from Turkey. Looking at the flight path and US words that it was only for some seconds, it doesn't seem like the shooting, which is effectively a murder of the pilots, was warranted. I do get that they entered Turkish airspace, but they were not taking or going to take any action against Turkey. So I disagree with the talk about "fighting back" or "defending". Russian pilots were at fault for sure and should have been punished, but that was a bit to harsh. Illegally crossing your territory without malicious intentions never warrants a shot, in any situation I can think of.

While I feel for the pilots and their families, it is difficult to feel for the Russians as a whole.

[blankall]

Turkey's vigilant defence of their airspace is quite baffling, as they routinely violate Greek, Armenian, and Syrian airspace:

http://www.businessinsider.com/turki...ogfight-2015-7

I find Turkey's whole foreign policy to be quite baffling. They've purposely alienated their former biggest ally, Israel. Israel has now formed an alliance with Greece, Cyprus, Bulgaria, and Armenia. Turkey seems to be antagonizing the US while simultaneously pissing off Russia. Turkey recently expelled their Egyptian diplomats. Turkey seemed to be building an alliance with Iran, but then chose to back ISIS against the Iranian backed Assad group.

I just don't get it....

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by blankall

Turkey's vigilant defence of their airspace is quite baffling, as they routinely violate Greek, Armenian, and Syrian airspace:

http://www.businessinsider.com/turki...ogfight-2015-7

I find Turkey's whole foreign policy to be quite baffling. They've purposely alienated their former biggest ally, Israel. Israel has now formed an alliance with Greece, Cyprus, Bulgaria, and Armenia. Turkey seems to be antagonizing the US while simultaneously pissing off Russia. Turkey recently expelled their Egyptian diplomats. Turkey seemed to be building an alliance with Iran, but then chose to back ISIS against the Iranian backed Assad group.

I just don't get it....

They seem like a bit of a:

[Flacker]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Seems like an overreaction from Turkey. Looking at the flight path and US words that it was only for some seconds, it doesn't seem like the shooting, which is effectively a murder of the pilots, was warranted. I do get that they entered Turkish airspace, but they were not taking or going to take any action against Turkey. So I disagree with the talk about "fighting back" or "defending". Russian pilots were at fault for sure and should have been punished, but that was a bit to harsh. Illegally crossing your territory without malicious intentions never warrants a shot, in any situation I can think of.

While I agree with you on all points, I would like to refresh your memory regarding Korean Air Lines Flight 007. A commercial jet shot down, after accidentally wandering over Siberian airspace, which killed 8 Canadians. At least the aircraft in question this time was military.

[Byrns]

I don't think shoot downs during the Cold War can be comparable to what happened today. (not that there's any excuse to shoot down a commercial airliner that is no threat)

[sureLoss]

A Russian military plane armed with missiles flying into another country's airspace and that country can't assume malicious intent?

There are Turkish towns and cities roughly 5km away from where the Russian airplane crossed over into Turkey based on the map provided by Thor.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

A Russian military plane armed with missiles flying into another country's airspace and that country can't assume malicious intent?

There are Turkish towns and cities roughly 5km away from where the Russian airplane crossed over into Turkey based on the map provided by Thor.

It would be insane to assume that Russia was going to attack NATO member with one aged jet plane. It was obvious that the plane was attacking Syrian lands, not Turkish.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Byrns

I don't think shoot downs during the Cold War can be comparable to what happened today. (not that there's any excuse to shoot down a commercial airliner that is no threat)

Damn right you can't compare shoot downs of passenger airplanes during the Cold War to shoot downs of military airplanes during a Hot War.

[sureLoss]

Originally Posted by Pointman

It would be insane to assume that Russia was going to attack NATO member with one aged jet plane. It was obvious that the plane was attacking Syrian lands, not Turkish.

Right... then by that logic, why did Russia shoot down so many unarmed US spy planes during the cold war?

It would be insane to assume the US would attack Russia and risk nuclear war.

why does Russia defend it's airspace against the US at all?

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Pointman

It would be insane to assume that Russia was going to attack NATO member with one aged jet plane. It was obvious that the plane was attacking Syrian lands, not Turkish.

Or it was testing the response of Turkish Surface to Air Defense.

What I think is insane is to assume anything when it comes to Russia's actions.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

A Russian military plane armed with missiles flying into another country's airspace and that country can't assume malicious intent?

There are Turkish towns and cities roughly 5km away from where the Russian airplane crossed over into Turkey based on the map provided by Thor.

Do you seriously believe that Turkey thought/assumed it was a Russian invasion with intent to bomb turkish cities? At this point it is an excuse! Just a way to justify their actions, instead of apologizing for the miscommunication on both sides.

[sureLoss]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

Do you seriously believe that Turkey thought/assumed it was a Russian invasion with intent to bomb turkish cities? At this point it is an excuse! Just a way to justify their actions, instead of apologizing for the miscommunication on both sides.

Did they seriously believe there was a threat to their cities? Only the Turkish military leader that ordered the plane shot down can answer that. For all they knew the Russians were acting on intelligence that Syrian rebels were operating inside Turkey and they were chasing them down regardless of Turkish citizen lives.

Were they justified. 100%.

[Itse]

This is part of a Turkish press release.

(Spoiler for size)

Spoiler!

Some speculative commentary...

That piece of land the fighter flew over is something like 1-3 km wide I believe, so it would take seconds for a fighter jet to fly all the way across. Considering the speeds of fighter jets and relatively small areas of land they're flying over, crossing borders is in probably not that rare.

It does kind of look like the Russian jet was taunting the Turks though.

It's also notable that Russia hasn't said anything about why the jet was there. My guess is that it means one of two things:
a) The jet was doing something they don't really want to talk about. Most probably bombing the Turkmen rebels living near the border. From that angle Turkey wanting to shoot down that jet actually is quite understandable. (Turkmen being ethnically related to Turks.)
b) The jet was really just there to test the Turks patience.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Flacker

While I agree with you on all points, I would like to refresh your memory regarding Korean Air Lines Flight 007. A commercial jet shot down, after accidentally wandering over Siberian airspace, which killed 8 Canadians. At least the aircraft in question this time was military.

I have read up in it now. It was a murder and those responsible should have been prosecuted.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

Did they seriously believe there was a threat to their cities? Only the Turkish military leader that ordered the plane shot down can answer that.

Were the justified. 100%.

It is interesting that the plane was hit over Syrian territory then. Also, right now it is a he said she said in regards to the actual path of the plane.

Update: Documents from the turkish side say the plane spent a whole 17 seconds in Turkish airspace.

Aside: If the sides were reversed would you say Russia was justified? or would you believe the Turkish side?
Finally, and I really don't know the rules regarding this one, was the Turkish air to air missile violating Syrian airspace?

[Bigtime]

http://www.economist.com/news/europe...tconfrontation

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by Itse

This is part of a Turkish press release.

(Spoiler for size)

Spoiler!

Some speculative commentary...

That piece of land the fighter flew over is something like 1-3 km wide I believe, so it would take seconds for a fighter jet to fly all the way across. Considering the speeds of fighter jets and relatively small areas of land they're flying over, crossing borders is in probably not that rare.

It does kind of look like the Russian jet was taunting the Turks though.

It's also notable that Russia hasn't said anything about why the jet was there. My guess is that it means one of two things:
a) The jet was doing something they don't really want to talk about. Most probably bombing the Turkmen rebels living near the border. From that angle Turkey wanting to shoot down that jet actually is quite understandable. (Turkmen being ethnically related to Turks.)
b) The jet was really just there to test the Turks patience.

Russia has been pretty vocal recently about suggesting that Turkey aids and abets ISIS with commerce and a porous border. It would not be surprising if Russia was taking action or threatening to take action related to that nor would it be surprising for Turkey to feel threatened given Russia's comments. I would say they both are/were playing with fire here

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Itse

This is part of a Turkish press release.

(Spoiler for size)

Spoiler!

Some speculative commentary...

That piece of land the fighter flew over is something like 1-3 km wide I believe, so it would take seconds for a fighter jet to fly all the way across. Considering the speeds of fighter jets and relatively small areas of land they're flying over, crossing borders is in probably not that rare.

It does kind of look like the Russian jet was taunting the Turks though.

It's also notable that Russia hasn't said anything about why the jet was there. My guess is that it means one of two things:
a) The jet was doing something they don't really want to talk about. Most probably bombing the Turkmen rebels living near the border. From that angle Turkey wanting to shoot down that jet actually is quite understandable. (Turkmen being ethnically related to Turks.)
b) The jet was really just there to test the Turks patience.

Originally Posted by Bigtime

http://www.economist.com/news/europe...tconfrontation

From Bigtime's article:

On November 24th, according to a statement by Turkish armed forces, a plane of “unknown origin” was intercepted by a pair of F-16s and ordered 10 times within five minutes to leave Turkish airspace. The Turks say they shot it down after it ignored the warnings. Russia reported the loss of its plane soon afterwards, and says it can prove it was over Syria the entire time.

I really wonder if the truth will ever been know.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by edslunch

Russia has been pretty vocal recently about suggesting that Turkey aids and abets ISIS with commerce and a porous border. It would not be surprising if Russia was taking action or threatening to take action related to that nor would it be surprising for Turkey to feel threatened given Russia's comments.

I think if that jet had been on a mission to bomb the ISIS, Russians would be screaming that from the rooftops.

I would say they both are/were playing with fire here

Yup.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Itse

I think if that jet had been on a mission to bomb the ISIS, Russians would be screaming that from the rooftops.

I'm pretty sure they know they could shout that from the rooftops whether it's true or not. It's not like that's the perfect excuse, but they can't use it because they wouldn't want to lie. They'll tell us whatever they want regardless of whether or not it's true.