[News] Jarome Iginla "only" a 105% chance of making HHOF

[Oil Stain]

Being un-Canadian has definitely hurt Kopitar in comparison to Toews.


Kopitar has two cups and the same PPG average over his career as Toews as well as being used in a two way role. Kopitar has been the shutdown center on a team that has consistently been as good or better than the Blackhawks defensively, but Toews has a selke and Kopitar doesn't.

He doesn't have World Junior and World Senior golds because he hasn't played on a national program that is the best in the world. The "Toews is a winner" mantra is almost exclusively why Toews is regarded as well as he is. A lot of other players cannot hope to match those types of "individual accomplishments" solely because of where they were born.

There is obviously a pro-Canadian bias in the media, which is fine because they are just catering to their fan base, but we shouldn't pretend that it doesn't exist.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

Being un-Canadian has definitely hurt Kopitar in comparison to Toews.


Kopitar has two cups and the same PPG average over his career as Toews as well as being used in a two way role.

He doesn't have World Junior and World Senior golds because he hasn't played on a national program that is the best in the world. The "Toews is a winner" mantra is almost exclusively why Toews is regarded as well as he is. A lot of other players cannot hope to match those types of "individual accomplishments" solely because of where they were born.

There is obviously a pro-Canadian bias in the media, which is fine because they are just catering to their fan base, but we shouldn't pretend that it doesn't exist.

'Non-Canadian?'

Even then....

[adc]

Originally Posted by codynw

Why should Crosby have won the Hart in 2013? He missed 25% of the season (lockout shortened, I know, still 1/4 of the season).

If that year went to anyone other than Ovechkin, it should have been Tavares.

Because despite missing 25% of the season he still scored as many points as Ovechkin and only 4 less then the leader. He led his team to a 9 point (in a shortened season) lead on the next best team in his conference.

He was the best player of that year and the only argument was that he missed some games. If he missed those games and was still producing better than most everyone else that should be a plus.

I had Tavares 2nd but I get a little tired of the good guy on bad team or team that overachieved winning awards. They are nice stories but shouldn't beat out great play which is what Crosby had that year.

[codynw]

Originally Posted by adc

Because despite missing 25% of the season he still scored as many points as Ovechkin and only 4 less then the leader. He led his team to a 9 point (in a shortened season) lead on the next best team in his conference.

He was the best player of that year and the only argument was that he missed some games. If he missed those games and was still producing better than most everyone else that should be a plus.

I had Tavares 2nd but I get a little tired of the good guy on bad team or team that overachieved winning awards. They are nice stories but shouldn't beat out great play which is what Crosby had that year.

Missing games should never be a plus.

And yes, he was the best player. That's why he won the Ted Lindsay, for most outstanding player. He didn't win the Hart, for most valuable player, because he wasn't very valuable sitting in the pressbox.

[adc]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

Being un-Canadian has definitely hurt Kopitar in comparison to Toews.


Kopitar has two cups and the same PPG average over his career as Toews as well as being used in a two way role.

He doesn't have World Junior and World Senior golds because he hasn't played on a national program that is the best in the world. The "Toews is a winner" mantra is almost exclusively why Toews is regarded as well as he is. A lot of other players cannot hope to match those types of "individual accomplishments" solely because of where they were born.

There is obviously a pro-Canadian bias in the media, which is fine because they are just catering to their fan base, but we shouldn't pretend that it doesn't exist.

I would say being slightly less than Toews has resulted in him being slightly less rated as Toews.

He has a slightly lower regular season and play-off PPG average. He has 2 cups to 3, 0 Conn Smyth's to 1. He is less physical and not as good on FO's.

It isn't like people treat Kopitar as a run of the mill guy. He is slightly less than Toews so he gets ranked in the 5-15 area, rather than the 1-5 area nothing wrong with that.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by codynw

Missing games should never be a plus.

And yes, he was the best player. That's why he won the Ted Lindsay, for most outstanding player. He didn't win the Hart, for most valuable player, because he wasn't very valuable sitting in the pressbox.

By that logic, a goalie should never win the Hart because they only play about 80% of the games.

[adc]

Originally Posted by codynw

Missing games should never be a plus.

And yes, he was the best player. That's why he won the Ted Lindsay, for most outstanding player. He didn't win the Hart, for most valuable player, because he wasn't very valuable sitting in the pressbox.

He missed 12 games. He played in a vast majority of the games that season.

The Most valuable versus Most outstanding is such a load of crap argument anyways.

[codynw]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

By that logic, a goalie should never win the Hart because they only play about 80% of the games.

Goalies are different because they're never expected to play all of the games and when they do play, they usually play the full 60 minutes. Not ~20.

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by Locke

And so he should. Probably the best player of our generation.

I hope this is sarcasm. Toews is a great player but he wouldn't make my top 5. Top 10 for sure though.

[codynw]

Originally Posted by adc

He missed 12 games. He played in a vast majority of the games that season.

The Most valuable versus Most outstanding is such a load of crap argument anyways.

How is that a "load of crap"?

That's literally how the awards are worded. NHL's wording, not mine.

[adc]

Originally Posted by codynw

How is that a "load of crap"?

That's literally how the awards are worded. NHL's wording, not mine.

Because the way many people read it is that guys on top teams with talent around them like Crosby, Malkin, Toews, Kane etc. shouldn't win the award because they aren't as important to their team as a guy with less talent around them.

That is the issue I have with the way more valuable versus outstanding is used by many people.

You want to know what is valuable to a team? Being the best player in the league. That is more valuable than anything else.

[Weitz]

Also 75% doesn't equal "vast majority" in my book.

[adc]

Originally Posted by Weitz

Also 75% doesn't equal "vast majority" in my book.

What does then?

If he played 2 more games (80%) would that be enough to win the award? Did he have to play 40 games to be eligible? Those 4 extra games really take him to MVP level?

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by adc

I would say being slightly less than Toews has resulted in him being slightly less rated as Toews.

He has a slightly lower regular season and play-off PPG average. He has 2 cups to 3, 0 Conn Smyth's to 1. He is less physical and not as good on FO's.

It isn't like people treat Kopitar as a run of the mill guy. He is slightly less than Toews so he gets ranked in the 5-15 area, rather than the 1-5 area nothing wrong with that.

Kopitar reg season-0.88ppg
Toews-0.88 ppg

Playoffs
Kopitar-0.86 ppg
Toews-0.87 ppg

Statistically insignificant difference in ppg. Number of cups is a team accomplishment.

The Conn Smythe and Selke awards are chosen by the hockey writers who are Canadian and have had a boner for Toews since his World Junior shootout heroics.

Toews had 3 points and was -5 in the finals when he won his Conn Smythe. That trophy could have went to a few guys on that team. Duncan Keith had 7 points in the finals and was nearly a PPG through the playoffs. Toews' name recognition probably helped him there.


Kopitar wasn't really any better in the finals in 13/14 but he also led his team in overall playoff points like Toews, and was the leading player in both ES and SH icetime. Williams won out because of a great story, game 7 hero, rather than because he was the better player on that team.

I'll give you Toews is better on faceoffs but that doesn't explain the difference between Toews ranked at number 2 in the world according to TSN and Kopitar ranked 17th, behind like 4-5 other centers.

[codynw]

Originally Posted by adc

What does then?

If he played 2 more games (80%) would that be enough to win the award? Did he have to play 40 games to be eligible? Those 4 extra games really take him to MVP level?

I'd say at least 90% of the team's games (for skaters).

36/48 games is equivalent to him playing 62/82 games. Nowhere near enough for an MVP award, IMO.

[adc]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

Kopitar reg season-0.88ppg
Toews-0.88 ppg

Playoffs
Kopitar-0.86 ppg
Toews-0.87 ppg

Statistically insignificant difference in ppg. Number of cups is a team accomplishment.

The Conn Smythe and Selke awards are chosen by the hockey writers who are Canadian and have had a boner for Toews since his World Junior heroics.

So the differences are small like I said but in favor of Toews in every case.

I'll give you Toews is better on faceoffs but that doesn't explain the difference between Toews ranked at number 2 in the world according to TSN and Kopitar ranked 17th, behind like 4-5 other centers.

I think that is a terrible ranking but is that what we are basing this off? I think if you looked at more rankings that Kopitar would usually rank higher than 17 and Toews would often be 3/4/5 as well.

That TSN ranking seems to be at the extreme end for both and also coming after a year in which Kopitar missed the play-offs and Toews won the Cup so likely some natural bias going into that.

As long as we keep seeing questionable trophy awards going to European players based on media votes(Ovechkin's Hart Trophies, Karlsson's Norris trophies) I think the Canadian media bias is a little overblown.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by adc

I would say being slightly less than Toews has resulted in him being slightly less rated as Toews.

He has a slightly lower regular season and play-off PPG average. He has 2 cups to 3, 0 Conn Smyth's to 1. He is less physical and not as good on FO's.

It isn't like people treat Kopitar as a run of the mill guy. He is slightly less than Toews so he gets ranked in the 5-15 area, rather than the 1-5 area nothing wrong with that.

who are your top 5?

I think between Toews, Tavaras, Crosby and Kopitar.... all 4 are interchangeable, really. Hard to have a de facto "top 5" IMO (if I had to pick a 5th, it would be Doughty).... there are probably 10 guys I'd say are "about the best"

[adc]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

who are your top 5?

I think between Toews, Tavaras, Crosby and Kopitar.... all 4 are interchangeable, really. Hard to have a de facto "top 5" IMO (if I had to pick a 5th, it would be Doughty).... there are probably 10 guys I'd say are "about the best"

Top 5 players?

1. Crosby 2. Price 3. Toews 4. Tavares 5. Stamkos

Tough to leave off a defenseman but I can't differentiate between Doughty, Keith and Weber right now. I think any of those could be best defenseman in the league and I couldn't argue.

Probably too much respect to Stamkos but I think his best is right up there in the top 3, whether he gets back there is tough to say.

For centers I think I have Kopitar 6th behind the 4 there and Getzlaf.

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by adc

So the differences are small like I said but in favor of Toews in every case.




I think that is a terrible ranking but is that what we are basing this off? I think if you looked at more rankings that Kopitar would usually rank higher than 17 and Toews would often be 3/4/5 as well.

That TSN ranking seems to be at the extreme end for both and also coming after a year in which Kopitar missed the play-offs and Toews won the Cup so likely some natural bias going into that.

As long as we keep seeing questionable trophy awards going to European players based on media votes(Ovechkin's Hart Trophies, Karlsson's Norris trophies) I think the Canadian media bias is a little overblown.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by adc

Top 5 players?

1. Crosby 2. Price 3. Toews 4. Tavares 5. Stamkos

Tough to leave off a defenseman but I can't differentiate between Doughty, Keith and Weber right now. I think any of those could be best defenseman in the league and I couldn't argue.

Probably too much respect to Stamkos but I think his best is right up there in the top 3, whether he gets back there is tough to say.

For centers I think I have Kopitar 6th behind the 4 there and Getzlaf.

Ah fair enough, I'd have Getzlaf (and Perry) a close 5th after a 4 way tie of (Crosby, Toews, Tavaras, Kopitar) and the dynamic Stamkos, along with Ovechkin, just hanging outside the top 10.

The 4 centers, the 3 D you mentioned (Doughty, Keith, Weber; Karlsson just hanging on the outside of the top 10, with Gio)... and Price make up my top 9.