[PGT] Flames Blank Av's 2-0

[DJones]

Originally Posted by Robbob

Some of the things I noticed from last night:
-Gio seems to be fighting the puck a bit. I don't recall so many puck hopping or going through his stick. It seems that this preseason they are more frequent. Hopefully it's him still shaking off some rust.
-Ferland isn't ready for the top line. He just doesn't have the chemistry with the other two and I find he doesn't create openings or enough options for the other two.
-Love the motor on some of the kids. Even in a nothing game you could see the effort in some of the kids.
-Shore was pretty good in the face-off dot.
-I would love to be a fly on the wall to listen in on the goalie talk the coaches and management are having.

I can't wait for this season to actually start. Only seven more sleeps.

Read that Gio couldn't do push ups during the fitness testing. Doesn't sound 100%

[FBI]

It was pull-ups

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Locke

Because Engelland could handle the bigger minutes

Except he couldn't. At all. He was the one players who was beyond out-matched after Gio went down and the reason our season didn't end was because our Top line + Wideman were on absolute fire, our goaltenders transformed into Omega Price, and our bottom pair of Schlemko and Diaz wasn't just okay, but dominating other team's bottom lines the way we hadn't had a good bottom pair all year.

, he was solid and Schlemko was still only getting his 8-10 minutes

Schlemko averaged 12:39 as a Flame while being a new guy having the stigma of being a waiver pickup.

, seriously for those 20+ games of Gio's injury Engelland was a standout

Well, I disagree about him standing out. He was hanging on by a thread.

I'm much happier to have had Engelland there than anyone else and hes going to be in the top 7 going into this season because of that versatility.

Now there's one thing I never thought I would hear about career #8-#7 Defenseman Deryk Engelland

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Not hating on Engelland, as he did fill in admirably last spring. But based on this year's competition, he could easily move down to #7 or #8, depending on where Wilson/Smid/Kulak end up. That would be a good thing.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Locke

Because Engelland could handle the bigger minutes, seriously for those 20+ games of Gio's injury Engelland was a standout, he was solid and Schlemko was still only getting his 8-10 minutes.

Sure, being with Brodie helps, but hes no scrub, hes a useful and versatile player that can play that #7 role or step into a top 4 role for limited amounts of time.

I'm much happier to have had Engelland there than anyone else and hes going to be in the top 7 going into this season because of that versatility.

If Hartley deciding to play him those minutes means he "handled" then, i see where we disagree.

I think Hartley made a mistake, you don't. There's no proof of the hypothetical, but Brodie/Engelland was not a good thing IMO.

With the available options, Wilson among others would be a better replacement

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Except he couldn't. At all. He was the one players who was beyond out-matched after Gio went down and the reason our season didn't end was because our Top line + Wideman were on absolute fire, our goaltenders transformed into Omega Price, and our bottom pair of Schlemko and Diaz wasn't just okay, but dominating other team's bottom lines the way we hadn't had a good bottom pair all year.



Schlemko averaged 12:39 as a Flame while being a new guy having the stigma of being a waiver pickup.



Well, I disagree about him standing out. He was hanging on by a thread.



Now there's one thing I never thought I would hear about career #8-#7 Defenseman Deryk Engelland

By no means am I an Engelland apologist, but you have to give him credit for stepping up when Giordano went down. If he was 'hanging on by a thread' we would not of made the playoffs.

Even Hartley was consistently praising Engelland's ability to step up and play in the top-4 during the most difficult time of the season.

I have no problem with Engelland as the 6/7 d-man due to his intangibles. You don't need 6 elite puck moving defensemen who can score. Even if you did, good luck fitting 6 of them under the cap.

[flamesrule_kipper34]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

If Hartley deciding to play him those minutes means he "handled" then, i see where we disagree.

I think Hartley made a mistake, you don't. There's no proof of the hypothetical, but Brodie/Engelland was not a good thing IMO.

With the available options, Wilson among others would be a better replacement

Absolutely, we'll take the opinion of the few here over Jack Adam's winner Hartley.

I think people have to just trust that our coaching staff makes these decisions on purpose and see things that clearly some are not.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

If Hartley deciding to play him those minutes means he "handled" then, i see where we disagree.

I think Hartley made a mistake, you don't. There's no proof of the hypothetical, but Brodie/Engelland was not a good thing IMO.

With the available options, Wilson among others would be a better replacement

The problem when analysing D-men, and specifically defensive D-men, it will always be a little bit of an opinion conversation.

That said, having a really tough time figuring how anyone could say "Hartley made a mistake" with where he put Engelland last year post Gio injury. The team continued to excel and overachieve for the remainder of the regular season and through the playoffs with Engelland taking on Top 4 minutes. That would not occur if Engelland was out of place playing on the top 2 pairings, the NHL is far to tight these days to allow for that to happen.

You could, argue that players who didn't get a similar opportunity to Engelland would have equaled his performance or bested it............that's something one could always propose. But I'd suggest that's a tough case to make given who our other options were, their history, and Hartley's track record on knowing this team the way he does.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

With the available options, Wilson among others would be a better replacement

Explain why, other than your irrational dislike of Engelland.

[genetic_phreek]

I think people forget that Engelland is also our ice police. See first round of playoffs or see Engelland vs Gadzic. Remember we have a lot of young guys I'd like to protect as well.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

If some people don't like Engelland or think he looks weak in these preseason games, fine.

But I think history is being twisted when saying things like he wasn't good down the stretch last season or in the playoffs. He took on more minutes and played better.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

If some people don't like Engelland or think he looks weak in these preseason games, fine.

But I think history is being twisted when saying things like he wasn't good down the stretch last season or in the playoffs. He took on more minutes and played better.

I disagree. He only played better because he had Brodie and not Smid. He absolutely obliterated Brodie's effectiveness. The smart move in my hockey genius opinion, would've been Brodie and Schlemko being servings line and leave Engelland getting his 10 minutes on the third line.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

By no means am I an Engelland apologist, but you have to give him credit for stepping up when Giordano went down. If he was 'hanging on by a thread' we would not of made the playoffs

I don't believe I have to give the biggest liability on the ice for over two months credit for being overplayed.

Let's look at some goaltending stats between Feb 27 to April 9 in wins + OT/shootouts:
Jonas Hiller with a save percentage of 0.944 / 7W / 1SOL (15 Points)
Karri Ramo with a save percentage of 0.921 / 5W / 1OTL / 1SOL (12 Points)

In those 12 wins and 3 tie-losses out of the 19 vital games, we got very, very good goaltending.

Let's also look at some (5v5) defense pairing stats in the games between Feb 27 to April 9:

Wideman-Russell on the ice for 22 goals for, 11 goals against
Schlemko-Diaz on the ice for 7 goals for, 3 goals against
Brodie-Engelland on the ice for 6 goals for, 12 goals against

You can look at the contrast between the stats and draw one of four conclusions:

A)Brodie was a liability in that role
B)Brodie and Engelland were both liabilities in that role
C)These two got really bad puck-luck.
D)Engelland was liability in that role

Well, I know Brodie was nursing an ankle injury, but my eye test didn't tell me Brodie was costing the team. So I don't think A and B are the right answer.

C's a possibility if the on-ice play wasn't one-sided. But additional stats show this pairing had possession stats of 36.6%. That's spending 2/3rd of the TOI stuck defending. They scored 1/3rd of the goals. I see what appears to be a correlation.

As for D? I saw it with my eyes when it was happening and I continued to see it with my eyes. But maybe I'm just crazy.

At no point last season did Engelland's pairing outscore the other team last year, whether it was with Brodie(middle pairing), with Diaz (bottom pairing), or with Smid(bottom pairing).

I get that people like what he brings in a #7 role, and I don't blame you for it. But I just think any team sport's objective is usually to outscore or at least tie the other team when you're out there.

I'm not asking Engelland to be a great puck-mover. I'm asking him be able to make the simple clean outlet to our forwards (something Nakladal, Wilson, Sieloff and Wotherspoon have shown they can do infinitely better in this preseason).

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

I disagree. He only played better because he had Brodie and not Smid. He absolutely obliterated Brodie's effectiveness. The smart move in my hockey genius opinion, would've been Brodie and Schlemko being servings line and leave Engelland getting his 10 minutes on the third line.

And how many Jack Adams votes did you receive?

We made the playoffs with a line-up that really had no business doing so. And you're going to sit here and critique how Hartley paired his defensemen?

Can the regular season please start already..

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

I disagree. He only played better because he had Brodie and not Smid. He absolutely obliterated Brodie's effectiveness.

Well, I think he deserves some credit rather than just giving all the credit to a defense partner. He sure looked like he played a smarter, more simple game to me.

As for him making Brodie worse, wasn't Brodie hurt at the time? I believe that's a plausible reason for Brodie's supposed nosedive. It's possibly not all Engelland's fault.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

I disagree. He only played better because he had Brodie and not Smid. He absolutely obliterated Brodie's effectiveness. The smart move in my hockey genius opinion, would've been Brodie and Schlemko being servings line and leave Engelland getting his 10 minutes on the third line.

What the hell are you babbling about? Who is arguing that Smid / Engelland = a 2nd paring defence. The fact that this is your rational shows just how out to lunch you are on what is important to this conversation or the debate. No #### Smid / Engelland doesn't equal Brodie / Engelland. And no #### Brodie is better when he's playing with the best defender in the league.

As good as Brodie is, he's not good enough to be a part of D tandem that is legitimately a 2nd NHL pairing in the NHL (which Engelland and him were last year) if his partner is hot garbage.

The only argument you have is to say "we don't know if Shlomo / Brodie would have been better because we didn't see it", but as mentioned before that's a pretty tough case to make. These arguments you have that Engelland made Brodie worse than when he plays with Gio aren't even relevant. Of course he did, no one is arguing he didn't. Smid, Shlomo, Russell, Wideman all would have done the same. Engelland proved he could step up and play Top 4 minutes "effectively" last year when paried with a legit Top 2 NHL D-man. At this moment, we cannot say with any confidence that any of our other options last year or this year competing for spots 5-8 on this club could have, and we haven't seen anything in pre season to date from any of them that comes close to putting Engelland's role on this club (5-7 d-man) in question at this point.

[DoubleF]

I couldn't quite figure out why we had stoppages twice for both Avs goalies. Did we get some weird shots between their equipment or something? I think Berra took one to the side of the mask, not sure about Pickard.

Is Byron still injured or shaking off rust? He seemed slow. Or maybe our team is faster? Russell looked faster to me, but I wasn't sure if that was real.

Hamilton's foot speed is a bit slow to me. Maybe I'm crazy, but I thought it seemed nearly on par with Wideman. I think Gio had to cover for him a few times. But he's still adjusting and I'm not super concerned for now.

I really freaking like Granlund's wrister. He needs to use it more often.

Glencross did well last night. Hope he gets a contract of sorts somewhere.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

And how many Jack Adams votes did you receive?

We made the playoffs with a line-up that really had no business doing so. And you're going to sit here and critique how Hartley paired his defensemen?

Can the regular season please start already..

Honestly, an appeal to authority does not make a better argument than the "he sucks because he sucks" argument that others are making. Hartley very much deserved the Jack Adams, but that doesn't mean his is above criticism.


But as far as the criticism of Engelland goes, I think a lot of it really comes down to the fact that he is a 6D, and people want him to be more. He's not. He was able to up his game for the stretch run last year, but that still doesn't make him a top-four guy overall. And yes, Brodie's offensive stats declined while paired with him. But that was always going to be obvious given he lost the pairing with the highest scoring D in the league.

Engelland is what he is, and what he is will never be perfect. People simply need to learn to deal with that. They need to accept that Wotherspoon, Wilson, Nakladal, etc., are fighting for the 7D spot right now. That's it. They need to really wow the coaches to take Engelland's job. Simply being subjectively better in the minds of fans who hate Engelland for not being another #1D won't do it.

[genetic_phreek]

Originally Posted by DoubleF

I couldn't quite figure out why we had stoppages twice for both Avs goalies. Did we get some weird shots between their equipment or something? I think Berra took one to the side of the mask, not sure about Pickard.

Is Byron still injured or shaking off rust? He seemed slow. Or maybe our team is faster? Russell looked faster to me, but I wasn't sure if that was real.

Hamilton's foot speed is a bit slow to me. Maybe I'm crazy, but I thought it seemed nearly on par with Wideman. I think Gio had to cover for him a few times. But he's still adjusting and I'm not super concerned for now.

I really freaking like Granlund's wrister. He needs to use it more often.

Glencross did well last night. Hope he gets a contract of sorts somewhere.

That's crazy. Even the commentators were commenting how he looks like a gazelle out there with his movement and how fast he gets around.

[Aleks]

I did see the refs talk to Ferland a few times last night so may e he was feeling extra watched?