The Jade Helm conspiracy theory

[troutman]

Math Says There’s No Way These Conspiracy Theories Are Real

Especially, where the conspiracy must involve 1000 agents or more.

the results of this model suggest that large conspiracies (≥1000 agents) quickly become untenable and prone to failure

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/next/ph...ries-are-real/

“Historical examples show that even in incredibly secretive organizations, there is always some possibility of an accidental or intentional intrinsic leak whether by whistle-blowing or ineptitude,” he wrote.

Using data from real-world affairs, including the NSA PRISM project, the Tuskegee syphilis experiments, and the FBI’s 20-year-long forensics scandal that was exposed earlier this year, Grimes created an algorithm that calculated the probability of a cover-up being revealed. He then applied that algorithm to four prominent conspiracy theories—the moon landing hoax, climate change fraud, vaccination conspiracy, and a suppressed cancer cure.

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

sources for all of it please.

Coincidentally I'm stuck in an airport on my cell phone. From memory I can tell a retired NASA flight researcher has called the flight velocity issue "the elephant in the room". Either it's all made up or those planes did something that has never been done before or since and likely can not possibly do again. Also Boeing has max velocity prescribed for these planes and they were well over a hundred knots faster.

The BBC has several times reported on the living hijackers and has interviewed them on tv before. I believe there is or was a law suit against the government by one of them. But the BBC is that source among several others.

The cell phone issue has been done to death but going from memory the "let's roll" guy's wife said she got calls from his cell phone and the FBI says it was a seat phone. In any and all cases though the official story changed from cell phones in 2002 to seat phones in the Mousassi trial in 2006.

PNAC is published and available for anyone to read. Project Northwoods is declassified and available in the national achieves. Northwoods in particular is an exact blue print for 9/11 and was approved by everyone except Kennedy.

The engine on Church street is probably just available on truther web sites but the fact that it doesn't currently exist as evidence is proven by the fact that it isn't mentioned anywhere in any official documentation. It might be a 767 engine but we will never know.

The FBI tells you 84-85 videos show nothing important. So I guess the FBI is your source for that. The missing frame is likely just on conspiracy web sites but when I watch it I see absolutely no plane and it does look like it's missing something. And personally I don't believe 85 out of 85 tapes missed it.

Cheney's "stand down" order was testified to By Leon Maneta the Transportation Secretary and later confirmed in court by him. It also confirms the order on June 1 2001 giving the VP power over Norad procedures. I think there are videos of his testimony. Not proof but just so convenient.

Brokaw reported on the five dancing Israelis as did several news agencies. There are police reports of the arrest and interviews with the arresting officers. There are interviews with the five guys on Israeli tv. I just wonder why they are never mentioned in official reports.

The insider trading is just a fact. Some of the abnormal trade might be a pile on trade but lots of profits were never claimed and there is a Goldman Sachs connection that I can't remember. The suspicious transactions just before the planes hit was retrieved from mangled discs.

Stratasec-Securecom had two Bush's, Wirt and Marvin, on their boards up to a year before 9-11 and up to 9-11. Believe it or don't, not my concern. But I don't have the source in my head.

The coincidence stuff is easily available. There's so much more than I mentioned too but I suspect no one wants to hear about it.

Three things I don't believe...1) too many people would have to be complacent for this to work. Lots of whisleblowers are screaming their heads off about this including military officers, fbi agents, eye witnesses. Media makes it all possible. 2) Ocim's razor. The most likely scenario in this case is not the official story. 3) People try to make sense out of tragedy by believing in conspiracies. There are dozens of proven conspiracies out there, most of them are pretex for war and many involve the US government. People try to make sense out of factual evidence.

[Locke]

I think it goes without saying that wealthy people will use their wealth in order to influence circumstances in their favour.

This happens all the time and although its still a problem, especially in the US.

But a Global Cabal of Psychopathic Oligarchs? That seems highly unlikely, not least of all because of the documented personality traits of psychopaths and Oligarchs.

They typically dont play well with others and their egos would likely not allow them to conspire with those either below them and certainly not above them in status, wealth or power.

The Lizard-Men though, they you have to watch out for but at the moment they seem to be content drilling for oil on the moon.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

Coincidentally I'm stuck in an airport on my cell phone. From memory I can tell a retired NASA flight researcher has called the flight velocity issue "the elephant in the room". Either it's all made up or those planes did something that has never been done before or since and likely can not possibly do again. Also Boeing has max velocity prescribed for these planes and they were well over a hundred knots faster.

The BBC has several times reported on the living hijackers and has interviewed them on tv before. I believe there is or was a law suit against the government by one of them. But the BBC is that source among several others.

The cell phone issue has been done to death but going from memory the "let's roll" guy's wife said she got calls from his cell phone and the FBI says it was a seat phone. In any and all cases though the official story changed from cell phones in 2002 to seat phones in the Mousassi trial in 2006.

PNAC is published and available for anyone to read. Project Northwoods is declassified and available in the national achieves. Northwoods in particular is an exact blue print for 9/11 and was approved by everyone except Kennedy.

The engine on Church street is probably just available on truther web sites but the fact that it doesn't currently exist as evidence is proven by the fact that it isn't mentioned anywhere in any official documentation. It might be a 767 engine but we will never know.

The FBI tells you 84-85 videos show nothing important. So I guess the FBI is your source for that. The missing frame is likely just on conspiracy web sites but when I watch it I see absolutely no plane and it does look like it's missing something. And personally I don't believe 85 out of 85 tapes missed it.

Cheney's "stand down" order was testified to By Leon Maneta the Transportation Secretary and later confirmed in court by him. It also confirms the order on June 1 2001 giving the VP power over Norad procedures. I think there are videos of his testimony. Not proof but just so convenient.

Brokaw reported on the five dancing Israelis as did several news agencies. There are police reports of the arrest and interviews with the arresting officers. There are interviews with the five guys on Israeli tv. I just wonder why they are never mentioned in official reports.

The insider trading is just a fact. Some of the abnormal trade might be a pile on trade but lots of profits were never claimed and there is a Goldman Sachs connection that I can't remember. The suspicious transactions just before the planes hit was retrieved from mangled discs.

Stratasec-Securecom had two Bush's, Wirt and Marvin, on their boards up to a year before 9-11 and up to 9-11. Believe it or don't, not my concern. But I don't have the source in my head.

The coincidence stuff is easily available. There's so much more than I mentioned too but I suspect no one wants to hear about it.

Three things I don't believe...1) too many people would have to be complacent for this to work. Lots of whisleblowers are screaming their heads off about this including military officers, fbi agents, eye witnesses. Media makes it all possible. 2) Ocim's razor. The most likely scenario in this case is not the official story. 3) People try to make sense out of tragedy by believing in conspiracies. There are dozens of proven conspiracies out there, most of them are pretex for war and many involve the US government. People try to make sense out of factual evidence.

I am wiling to wait for you to post actual links/sources for the large number of allegations/points you addressed in the original post i quoted.

Not that I have reason to doubt you, but I also don't have reason to believe you.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

There were ten commissioners and four staff members. That's why you only see ten people in the actual picture of the commission. Also, one resigned stating "it is a White House" cover up. Two resigned stating conflict of interest. And one said that the whole thing was a "30 year conspiracy". They might all believe terrorists did the deed but the majority do not believe it happened as they said it did in the report.

The cover up was to cover, and I quote here "complete incompetence or at best something closely resembling it". Not complicity. That's incredibly misleading here. Bob Kerrey did not say the event was a 30 year conspiracy. You'll find you can't back that one up.

There are simple things like several of the hijackers are still alive so who actually did this?

No, there aren't.

The engine on Church street wasn't from a 767 so at the very least tell me why it was buried in a land fill never to be seen or mentioned again.

Yes it was.

Did the fog of war bury evidence?

Every. Single. Time

How do planes fly so fast without breaking up?

Huh?

When they found out twenty minute cell phone calls were impossible at thirty thousand feet, why did they change the cell phone calls to seat back phone calls when there are records of them as cell phone calls?

No one changed anything. There's proof. Here's the actual logs of the seat back phones. They were installed on that plane.
http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/e...alldetail.html

Why are 84-85 videos of the plane hitting the Pentagon classified? Fog of war?

There are not 85 videos of a plane hitting the Pentagon. There were 85 videos, of the most sensitive building in the US, from the day of the attacks, that are classified. I'm not sure what you're insinuating here or why they shouldn't be classified. For hobby conspiracists?

And why does the one that is available have a frame missing and not show the actual plane?

Gonna need a little more here. Are you suggesting dozens and dozens of eyewitnesses, the investigators, etc many not government employees, are fabricating something and all holding the lie together? And some grainy video from an Internet sleuth prices this? Come on.

Why did Cheney order Norad to stand down?

Because that never happened. That's an invented thrutherism

Who are the five dancing Israelis?

Why does that matter? They've been identified, names published and nothing more has come of it.

The list of coincidence is much longer including the list of tenants and information lost in building 7.

Huh? Why is this relevant?

The Bush connection to the security companies that managed the towers and all four airports.

More difficult yet, find a large company the Bush's don't have connections with.

The office of naval intelligence at the Pentagon. The information held at Marsh and McLennan. The entire continental usaf save two planes was on war game assignments involving hijacked planes? The FBI was at a convention in California? The project hammer bonds coming due on Sept 12. PNAC. And project northwoods...this is not something that hasn't been imagined before. Suspicious last minute trades at the WTC. Obvious insider stock trading.

Gonna need more than conspiracy sites and your word on the things. Northwoods? Really?

Mostly since day one I can't watch the collapse and imagine it is any other than an explosion. I'm not pretending to know the physics or engineering involved but a lot of people have a lot of questions that are not answered by fog of war and...there is a first for everything.

A lot of people have a lot of questions about a lot of things

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by AcGold

Some people actually don't take the government at their word, 14 out of 14 commissioners or not I don't care what the commission said. Obviously there was enough circumstancial evidence to cause suspicions to rise, much like there was with JFK.

Jets stood down
White house staff met with members of Al Qaeda one day before 9/11
First steel structure ever to fall from fire, and then the second, and then miraculously a third (note fire being one of the reasons the commission gave)
Passports of terrorists at landing site
Firemen reporting explosions and secondary blasts
Weird behavior from president Bush.


Now this obviously isn't proof of a conspiracy, it's enough coincidence to make one logically contemplate the possibility of less than ethical behavior though.

To just flippantly say you're stupid for not believing the US government... why should we? What exemplary behavior do we have to follow that shows they are that trustworthy and exempt from scrutiny?

Their past president went to war over oil and opium, this one legalized fascism and drone strikes against their own population. I'm not seeing the logical stretch you are to sit and contemplate the possibilities, entertaining an idea without accepting is generally a logical way to go about things. It's just so condescending when there's so many patterns of evidence that logically should raise suspicion or at the least curiosity.

This fire was hot enough to melt steel columns, but the passports managed to land softly and untarnished in a pile of rubble. That's not weird at all, nothing to see, move along.

You know if you go out and do some research that doesn't involve alex jones and dylon Avery that most of what you talk about has been explained and debated and debunked over and over again.

Jets stood down

http://www.popularmechanics.com/mili...-myths-planes/

Claim: No fighter jets were scrambled from any of the 28 Air Force bases within close range of the four hijacked flights. "On 11 September Andrews had two squadrons of fighter jets with the job of protecting the skies over Washington D.C.," says the Web site emperors-clothes.com. "They failed to do their job." "There is only one explanation for this," writes Mark R. Elsis of StandDown.net. "Our Air Force was ordered to Stand Down on 9/11."
FACT: On 9/11 there were only 14 fighter jets on alert in the contiguous 48 states. No computer network or alarm automatically alerted the North American Air Defense Command (NORAD) of missing planes. "They [civilian Air Traffic Control, or ATC] had to pick up the phone and literally dial us," says Maj. Douglas Martin, public affairs officer for NORAD. Boston Center, one of 22 Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) regional ATC facilities, called NORAD's Northeast Air Defense Sector (NEADS) three times: at 8:37 am EST to inform NEADS that Flight 11 was hijacked; at 9:21 am to inform the agency, mistakenly, that Flight 11 was headed for Washington (the plane had hit the North Tower 35 minutes earlier); and at 9:41 am to (erroneously) identify Delta Air Lines Flight 1989 from Boston as a possible hijacking. The New York ATC called NEADS at 9:03 am to report that United Flight 175 had been hijacked—the same time the plane slammed into the South Tower. Within minutes of that first call from Boston Center, NEADS scrambled two F-15s from Otis Air Force Base in Falmouth, Mass., and three F-16s from Langley Air National Guard Base in Hampton, Va. None of the fighters got anywhere near the pirated planes.


Why couldn't ATC find the hijacked flights? When the hijackers turned off the planes' transponders, which broadcast identifying signals, ATC had to search 4500 identical radar blips crisscrossing some of the country's busiest air corridors. And NORAD's sophisticated radar? It ringed the continent, looking outward for threats, not inward. "It was like a doughnut," Martin says. "There was no coverage in the middle." Pre-9/11, flights originating in the States were not seen as threats and NORAD wasn't prepared to track them.

White house staff met with members of Al Qaeda one day before 9/11

Please post the white house schedule for me, I believe the meeting was with the Taliban who are not Al Queda, but I'd like to see actual proof of this that doesn't come from a fictional movie like Loose Change or info wars


First steel structure ever to fall from fire, and then the second, and then miraculously a third (note fire being one of the reasons the commission gave)

also the first steel structure to be hit by planes of that size with the fuel load that they carried.

This has been completely ripped apart and most of the theories are here

http://www.debunking911.com/firsttime.htm


Passports of terrorists at landing site

Lets just engage the whole the terrorists are still alive conspiracy claim. This was debunked a long time ago as there were name confusions happening all over the place

http://conspiracies.skepticproject.c...s-still-alive/

Also on the passports thing, stuff survives crashes and fires.

http://www.911myths.com/html/passport_recovered.html

including worms taken up in the shuttle that exploded. this is a big reach.



Firemen reporting explosions and secondary blasts

A lot of that was lies and creative editing and misquotes from the 9/11 Truthers. the Conspiracy theorists are fairly brilliant in ensnaring the rubes through the use of creative editing and manipulation of quotes

http://www.debunking911.com/explosions.htm


Weird behavior from president Bush.

You'll have to be a little clearer on this, but lets see the US had just been attacked in the largest terrorist attack in its history, and in fact an attack that was probably bigger and more brutal in scale then Pearl Harbor? How's he supposed to react?

[blankall]

Dear Lord..... People are still going on about melting steel columns.. That was the first conspiracy theory that was debunked. The columns don't need to melt. Like all metals they will bend as they heat up.

[nik-]

Most of the conspiracy theories are pretty ridiculous. The administration knowing and letting it happen though, I could buy that. I don't think that's what actually happened, but if turned out to be the case, my reaction would be "yeah, ok, makes sense" and wouldn't really be shock.

Knowing and letting it happen in generalities, not the full extent of the plan.

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

The cover up was to cover, and I quote here "complete incompetence or at best something closely resembling it". Not complicity. That's incredibly misleading here. Bob Kerrey did not say the event was a 30 year conspiracy. You'll find you can't back that one up

I'm typing this link by hand so hopefully it works. But is this not Bob Kerrey suggesting in no uncertain terms 9-11 was a 30 year conspiracy...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDfm3NroVG8

"It's a 30 year conspiracy." "No I'm talking about 9-11" "That's what I'm talking about."

I am wiling to wait for you to post actual links/sources for the large number of allegations/points you addressed in the original post i quoted.

Not that I have reason to doubt you, but I also don't have reason to believe you.

For sure. I know you're looking for gocha moments but I'll play because I'm very interested in answers so would be happy if you could provide them.

[NuclearPizzaMan]

We should resurrect Hitler, give him the power suit from Wolfenstein3D, and reprogram him to hate 9/11 truthers.


Jet fuel can't melt THE TRUTH!!!

[Coach]

Obviously plenty of conspiracy theories turn out false and/or crazy. But I think it's important to ask questions and when the government fails to give proper answers or release information about events, especially those surrounding civilian deaths, people are going to come up with their own ideas. It's not like the US government (and most governments) haven't done terrible things for similar reasons in the past. Invading sovereign nations, propping up dictators and staging military coups of elected governments purely to combat communism or promote capitalism.

I really think we are going to learn a lot of terrible things about the Bush administration once documents begin to be declassified.

[CaptainCrunch]

You're trying to frame a quote to mean what you want it to mean there Mulder.

[GGG]

Why do you need to melt steel. The allowable stress in steel drops as temperature increases. You don't need to melt steel or even enter the creep regime to exceed the yield strength at elevated temperature.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

Coincidentally I'm stuck in an airport on my cell phone. From memory I can tell a retired NASA flight researcher has called the flight velocity issue "the elephant in the room". Either it's all made up or those planes did something that has never been done before or since and likely can not possibly do again. Also Boeing has max velocity prescribed for these planes and they were well over a hundred knots faster.

Experts have shown how it happened over, and over, and over, and over, and over. It's not a stretch

The BBC has several times reported on the living hijackers and has interviewed them on tv before. I believe there is or was a law suit against the government by one of them. But the BBC is that source among several others.

The BBC refutes your idea:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditor..._theory_1.html

The cell phone issue has been done to death but going from memory the "let's roll" guy's wife said she got calls from his cell phone and the FBI says it was a seat phone. In any and all cases though the official story changed from cell phones in 2002 to seat phones in the Mousassi trial in 2006.

Nothing "changed". Every seat had a phone equipped. There are logs for the calls that are available for viewing as they were part of that trial. Maybe the telecom companies are in on this?

PNAC is published and available for anyone to read. Project Northwoods is declassified and available in the national achieves. Northwoods in particular is an exact blue print for 9/11 and was approved by everyone except Kennedy.

Northlands has very little similarities with 911. There aren't even buildings like the trade towers in Kennedy's days. Lol. Exact blue print

The engine on Church street is probably just available on truther web sites but the fact that it doesn't currently exist as evidence is proven by the fact that it isn't mentioned anywhere in any official documentation. It might be a 767 engine but we will never know.

It sure looks line a 767 engine, but yes, they probably planted evidence, then removed it and didn't list it because.......

The FBI tells you 84-85 videos show nothing important. So I guess the FBI is your source for that. The missing frame is likely just on conspiracy web sites but when I watch it I see absolutely no plane and it does look like it's missing something. And personally I don't believe 85 out of 85 tapes missed it.

Who said they all missed it? One agent said she viewed 29 if them and a couple showed an explain and 1 showed the plane. Where would most cameras in the Pentagon be pointed? How many would view the sky?

Cheney's "stand down" order was testified to By Leon Maneta the Transportation Secretary and later confirmed in court by him. It also confirms the order on June 1 2001 giving the VP power over Norad procedures. I think there are videos of his testimony. Not proof but just so convenient.

Listen to Maneta again. He testified that Cheney confirmed that Bush's order to shoot the planes down was still active. The testimony is public. I just watched it. It literally disproves what you said. THERE WAS NO STAND DOWN ORDER. And Cheney was not VP of Norad. There is no VP and he had no day to day dealing with norad.

Brokaw reported on the five dancing Israelis as did several news agencies. There are police reports of the arrest and interviews with the arresting officers. There are interviews with the five guys on Israeli tv. I just wonder why they are never mentioned in official reports.

Because it was a dead end long before the commission began. There were hundreds if not thousands of other random "leads" that don't asked in the commission because they're irrelevant.

The insider trading is just a fact. Some of the abnormal trade might be a pile on trade but lots of profits were never claimed and there is a Goldman Sachs connection that I can't remember. The suspicious transactions just before the planes hit was retrieved from mangled discs.

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/putcall.asp

Stratasec-Securecom had two Bush's, Wirt and Marvin, on their boards up to a year before 9-11 and up to 9-11. Believe it or don't, not my concern. But I don't have the source in my head.

First, Wirt Walker III is not a bush, and Marvin has been in boards of many, many companies. And what does this mean, exactly ?

The coincidence stuff is easily available. There's so much more than I mentioned too but I suspect no one wants to hear about it.

Three things I don't believe...1) too many people would have to be complacent for this to work. Lots of whisleblowers are screaming their heads off about this including military officers, fbi agents, eye witnesses.

Who are these whistlblowers??

Media makes it all possible. 2) Ocim's razor. The most likely scenario in this case is not the official story.

So all these elaborate plans, cover ups, planned evidence, thousands of eyewitnesses lying etc all more simple? Occam disagrees

3) People try to make sense out of tragedy by believing in conspiracies. There are dozens of proven conspiracies out there, most of them are pretex for war and many involve the US government. People try to make sense out of factual evidence.

No, people want to believe there are sinister cabals and they're just smarter than the rest and have it all figured out

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

I'm typing this link by hand so hopefully it works. But is this not Bob Kerrey suggesting in no uncertain terms 9-11 was a 30 year conspiracy...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDfm3NroVG8

"It's a 30 year conspiracy." "No I'm talking about 9-11" "That's what I'm talking about."



For sure. I know you're looking for gocha moments but I'll play because I'm very interested in answers so would be happy if you could provide them.

It doesn't mean what you think it means. Kerrey is on record over and over and over as being convinced of the events as they happened. What he's referring to in this clip is, well, I'll let him explain in his own words:

"The news that an Al Qaeda terrorist residing in a Supermax prison in Colorado has accused members of the Saudi royal family of complicity in terrorist activities in the late 1990s and beyond should scramble the nation’s national security apparatus to action.

We do not need another 9/11 Commission. That independent commission, on which I sat, produced an extensive report. So did congressional intelligence committees, including 28 classified pages that directly addressed the Saudi role in financing the attacks."



http://m.nydailynews.com/opinion/bob...icle-1.2105003


He certainly does not think the US government is involved. Sorry that doesn't fit your theory

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Locke

I think it goes without saying that wealthy people will use their wealth in order to influence circumstances in their favour.

This happens all the time and although its still a problem, especially in the US.

But a Global Cabal of Psychopathic Oligarchs? That seems highly unlikely, not least of all because of the documented personality traits of psychopaths and Oligarchs.

They typically dont play well with others and their egos would likely not allow them to conspire with those either below them and certainly not above them in status, wealth or power.

The Lizard-Men though, they you have to watch out for but at the moment they seem to be content drilling for oil on the moon.

Remember that time Redford went to the Bilderberg meeting?

just saying...

[Swift]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Northlands has very little similarities with 911. There aren't even buildings like the trade towers in Kennedy's days. Lol. Exact blue print

Pretty sure he meant an exact blueprint in terms of the deception and coverup, rather than meaning that the two attacks would be the same down to exact details.

Also, he didn't state that Cheney was VP of NORAD.

--------

Obviously, I knew there were 9/11 conspiracies out there, but this is the first I've really read any of the accusations. I'm finding it quite interesting actually.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Cameron Swift

Pretty sure he meant an exact blueprint in terms of the deception and coverup, rather than meaning that the two attacks would be the same down to exact details.

Also, he didn't state that Cheney was VP of NORAD.

--------

Obviously, I knew there were 9/11 conspiracies out there, but this is the first I've really read any of the accusations. I'm finding it quite interesting actually.

Sorry, misunderstood. Regardless, the VP had no day to day command of NORAD and certainly was no stand down order. The very video "proving" this theory disproves it if you watch the whole thing.

And Northwoods (not northland, spell check) then is a blue print for every terrorist attack, etc. It's not a blue print for anything. The fact is was 40 years earlier kind of makes it wholly irrelevant to the discussion and yet another point in a pointless discussion.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

Coincidentally I'm stuck in an airport on my cell phone. From memory I can tell a retired NASA flight researcher has called the flight velocity issue "the elephant in the room". Either it's all made up or those planes did something that has never been done before or since and likely can not possibly do again. Also Boeing has max velocity prescribed for these planes and they were well over a hundred knots faster.

The BBC has several times reported on the living hijackers and has interviewed them on tv before. I believe there is or was a law suit against the government by one of them. But the BBC is that source among several others.

The cell phone issue has been done to death but going from memory the "let's roll" guy's wife said she got calls from his cell phone and the FBI says it was a seat phone. In any and all cases though the official story changed from cell phones in 2002 to seat phones in the Mousassi trial in 2006.

PNAC is published and available for anyone to read. Project Northwoods is declassified and available in the national achieves. Northwoods in particular is an exact blue print for 9/11 and was approved by everyone except Kennedy.

The engine on Church street is probably just available on truther web sites but the fact that it doesn't currently exist as evidence is proven by the fact that it isn't mentioned anywhere in any official documentation. It might be a 767 engine but we will never know.

The FBI tells you 84-85 videos show nothing important. So I guess the FBI is your source for that. The missing frame is likely just on conspiracy web sites but when I watch it I see absolutely no plane and it does look like it's missing something. And personally I don't believe 85 out of 85 tapes missed it.

Cheney's "stand down" order was testified to By Leon Maneta the Transportation Secretary and later confirmed in court by him. It also confirms the order on June 1 2001 giving the VP power over Norad procedures. I think there are videos of his testimony. Not proof but just so convenient.

Brokaw reported on the five dancing Israelis as did several news agencies. There are police reports of the arrest and interviews with the arresting officers. There are interviews with the five guys on Israeli tv. I just wonder why they are never mentioned in official reports.

The insider trading is just a fact. Some of the abnormal trade might be a pile on trade but lots of profits were never claimed and there is a Goldman Sachs connection that I can't remember. The suspicious transactions just before the planes hit was retrieved from mangled discs.

Stratasec-Securecom had two Bush's, Wirt and Marvin, on their boards up to a year before 9-11 and up to 9-11. Believe it or don't, not my concern. But I don't have the source in my head.

The coincidence stuff is easily available. There's so much more than I mentioned too but I suspect no one wants to hear about it.

Three things I don't believe...1) too many people would have to be complacent for this to work. Lots of whisleblowers are screaming their heads off about this including military officers, fbi agents, eye witnesses. Media makes it all possible. 2) Ocim's razor. The most likely scenario in this case is not the official story. 3) People try to make sense out of tragedy by believing in conspiracies. There are dozens of proven conspiracies out there, most of them are pretex for war and many involve the US government. People try to make sense out of factual evidence.

you really need to go outside of conspiracy sites because most of this has been shown to be crap and half truths.

The terrorists still alive thing turned out to be garbage, and mis-identification and confusion over names, where these people actually came out after being identified by name and stating, hey I'm not that guy, I have the same name stupid.

The rest, most of it has been debunked.

And again in this thread.

When the physics or the science of the collapse was actually validated as being caused by the collision, the rest of the conspiracy quickly falls apart.

I still remember when the conspiracy guys bought on an expert to identify the debris at the Penatagon, and he stated that in his opinion that it wasn't the right jet parts, and it turned out that this guy was not an engineer, or designer or even a mechanic, he was involved in sales.

Also when I look at the Truther movements, when one of their leaders is advocating that space lasers bought down the buildings, I think that the whole discussion should be shut down.

For this massive conspiracy to work, you'd literally need hundreds and thousands of people involved, unless you believe that George and Dick spent the weekend wring the world trade center with science fiction Super Thermite.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Sorry, misunderstood. Regardless, the VP had no day to day command of NORAD and certainly was no stand down order. The very video "proving" this theory disproves it if you watch the whole thing.

And Northwoods (not northland, spell check) then is a blue print for every terrorist attack, etc. It's not a blue print for anything. The fact is was 40 years earlier kind of makes it wholly irrelevant to the discussion and yet another point in a pointless discussion.

The best part of Operation Northwoods was that it was (a) only declassified a couple years before 9/11, and (b) met with an official condemnation from the Cuban government mere weeks before 9/11.

Yet truthers looked at something that had been very much in the news at that very time and figure the government went with it anyway.