Mike Reilly will go UFA. UPD: narrows list to 2 or 3 teams

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by MacFlame

Can you please explain how Kevn Hayes has lost out on tens of millions of dollars by signing with the New York rangers as oppose to the Chicago Blackhawks?

He didn't because the Blackhawks didn't try to sign him earlier. You said a top prospect which I assumed meant an Eichel type... who would be signed right away. Hayes is also a bit of exception to the rule since he might not have signed with the Blackhawks due to what happened with his brother.

The team had four years to sign him. The longer they wait, the higher the players leverage gets. Its a gamble by a team.

[Knut]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

4 years, one would have to forego 4 years worth of salary to skip out on an awful team and then sign as a UFA after that. I think a far simpler solution is to force all NHL teams to sign all draft picks to entry level contracts. That way you close this loophole.

You would need to increase the number of contract spots and decrease the years on an ELC

[MacFlame]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

He didn't because the Blackhawks didn't try to sign him earlier. You said a top prospect which I assumed meant an Eichel type... who would be signed right away. Hayes is also a bit of exception to the rule since he might not have signed with the Blackhawks due to what happened with his brother.

The team had four years to sign him. The longer they wait, the higher the players leverage gets. Its a gamble by a team.

Kevin Hayes decided to stay in school. Whether the Blackhawks decided or tried to sign him previously doesn't matter...Kevin Hayes made the choice, the Blackhawks didn't make it for him. You make it sound like every NCAA player would automatically sign any NHL offer...that is not the case.

How did Schultz lose out on tens of millions of dollars by signing with the Oilers?....he likely made a pile of more.

How did Blake Wheeler lose out on tens of millions of dollars by signing with Atlanta as oppose to Arizona?


The NHL draft doesn't apply to NCAA players. This is the fundamental problem I have with this. A player is essentially a free agent if he plays in the NCAA, with the advantage to the NHL team being that they have "exclusive" negotiating rights. The fact that a CHL player would go back into the draft is leverage for the NHL team, leverage that does not exist for an NCAA player.

[StrykerSteve]

The UFA piece is what bothers me about this. There are so few opportunities for an NHL player to control their own destiny and that is something which is earned through years of service. Becoming a UFA is a big deal. I would just prefer to see unsigned players always re-enter the draft, so they too, can earn the right to become a UFA. Otherwise it is a disservice to the guy that's put in his seven years.

I get why it is the way it is, but I'll continue to dislike it.

[nfotiu]

I wonder why they don't just make it so college players enter the draft once they are done with school like BB and football. I don't see a lot of downside to that.

As it is now though, I'm sure the nhl teams factor in the risk of the player not signing when picking college players. I don't really see how anyone thinks they owe the team that drafts them, or are acting entitled by choosing their team when the rules allow it.

[PeteMoss]

They lose out on the money at the end of the line.

A 14 year NHL career becomes a 10 year NHL career.

Player A - signs at age 18
18-21 - Entry level Deal - $900k (approximately assuming no bonuses earned beyond signing bonus) - $2.7 million earnings
22-25 - Bridge Contract - $4.5 million - $13.50 million earnings ($16.2 total earnings)
25-30 - UFA Contract - $8 million - $40 million earnings (56.2 total earnings)
30-33 - UFA Contract - $6 million - $18 million earnings ($74.2 total earnings)

Player B - doesn't sign, holds out until he becomes eligible to sign with any team at age 23.
23-24 - Entry Level - $900k ($1.8 million earnings)
25 - Bridge Deal - $4.5 million ($6.3 million)
25-30 - UFA Contract - $8 million - $40 million earnings (46.3 total earnings)
30-33 - UFA Contract - $6 million - $18 million earnings ($64.3 total earnings)


Loss of earnings - $10 million dollars

[MacFlame]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

I don't really see how anyone thinks they owe the team that drafts them, or are acting entitled by choosing their team when the rules allow it.

It's not about "oweing it" to the team to me. it's about two different sets of rules for the two different groups of players.

[codynw]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

He didn't because the Blackhawks didn't try to sign him earlier. You said a top prospect which I assumed meant an Eichel type... who would be signed right away. Hayes is also a bit of exception to the rule since he might not have signed with the Blackhawks due to what happened with his brother.

The team had four years to sign him. The longer they wait, the higher the players leverage gets. Its a gamble by a team.

The problem is, they don't have four years to sign NCAA players. They aren't allowed to sign them until they're done school.

Teams should hold the rights to an NCAA player for a full year after they finish school. So that way, even if the kid won't sign, they can trade him instead of being screwed when he becomes an UFA a month later.

[MacFlame]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

They lose out on the money at the end of the line.

A 14 year NHL career becomes a 10 year NHL career.

Player A - signs at age 18
18-21 - Entry level Deal - $900k (approximately assuming no bonuses earned beyond signing bonus) - $2.7 million earnings
22-25 - Bridge Contract - $4.5 million - $13.50 million earnings ($16.2 total earnings)
25-30 - UFA Contract - $8 million - $40 million earnings (56.2 total earnings)
30-33 - UFA Contract - $6 million - $18 million earnings ($74.2 total earnings)

Player B - doesn't sign, holds out until he becomes eligible to sign with any team at age 23.
23-24 - Entry Level - $900k ($1.8 million earnings)
25 - Bridge Deal - $4.5 million ($6.3 million)
25-30 - UFA Contract - $8 million - $40 million earnings (46.3 total earnings)
30-33 - UFA Contract - $6 million - $18 million earnings ($64.3 total earnings)


Loss of earnings - $10 million dollars

You're analyzing a CHL player with an NCAA player and, on top of that you're assuming that the CHL player will make the NHL rights from his draft year....which doesn't happen.

The players I mentioned were allowed to become FA's right out of school...with no concern of having to go back into the draft if they did not sign with the original team.

[sureLoss]

Originally Posted by MacFlame

You're analyzing a CHL player with an NCAA player and, on top of that you're assuming that the CHL player will make the NHL rights from his draft year....which doesn't happen.

The players I mentioned were allowed to become FA's right out of school...with no concern of having to go back into the draft if they did not sign with the original team.

This is what Pete Moss was replying to.

Originally Posted by mister__big

Unsigned players like this should reenter the draft, plain and simple. Otherwise there's nothing stopping top prospects drafted by awful teams from going to college for a couple of years and then becoming an UFA.

So yes, a top prospect (i.e Eichel/Hanifin) that stays in the NCAA just to get to UFA is potentially losing millions of dollars.

A player like Hayes who needed development time isn't.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by T@T

Considering the player can't even have an agent those exclusive negotiating rights are about a month if he stays in school. said it before and I'll say it again team should have a year to sign a player after he leaves school.

They can't have an agent, but they all have "family advisors", who do everything agents do, and usually become the player's agent the moment his NCAA career ends. The only difference is the job title and the "advisor's" pay structure.

There are certain limitations placed on how much direct contact the teams can have with the players while they're in the NCAA, but it's not like there's a complete communications blackout.

We've seen it over the last few seasons since the Flames have started drafting some high-profile college players. They keep in touch with and communicate with the college players probably as much as they do with junior guys.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by codynw

The problem is, they don't have four years to sign NCAA players. They aren't allowed to sign them until they're done school.

Teams should hold the rights to an NCAA player for a full year after they finish school. So that way, even if the kid won't sign, they can trade him instead of being screwed when he becomes an UFA a month later.

The player can leave school. Do you really think Eichel is going to play four years at BU?

[codynw]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

The player can leave school. Do you really think Eichel is going to play four years at BU?

No, obviously not. I mean in this case with Reilly, or with Hayes last year. The teams have about a 2-3 month window to sign them after they finish school before they become an UFA, and that's wrong.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by MacFlame

It's not about "oweing it" to the team to me. it's about two different sets of rules for the two different groups of players.

Why shouldn't different groups have different rules? That makes sense to me... they're different afterall. What wouldn't make sense would be having the same rules for different groups because the needs of each are different.

Regardless, all three groups (Major Junior/American Collegient/Outside North America) have roughly the same choice sign with the team that currently holds your rights or wait a total of 4 years and get to choose your work location.

Originally Posted by codynw

No, obviously not. I mean in this case with Reilly, or with Hayes last year. The teams have about a 2-3 month window to sign them after they finish school before they become an UFA, and that's wrong.

How is that "wrong"? That's actually 2-3 more months time then they'd get with anyone selected out of the other two streams.

[codynw]

Originally Posted by Parallex

How is that "wrong"? That's actually 2-3 more months time then they'd get with anyone selected out of the other two streams.

Uhhh, what?

[PeteMoss]

You own the rights of an NCAA player for two more years than a CHL player. If Kevin Hayes had gone to the CHL, the Blackhawks would have had to sign much earlier or let him go back in the draft. You have a much longer window to see if a guy develops as you expect.

[codynw]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

You own the rights of an NCAA player for two more years than a CHL player. If Kevin Hayes had gone to the CHL, the Blackhawks would have had to sign much earlier or let him go back in the draft. You have a much longer window to see if a guy develops as you expect.

Okay, but a CHL player can sign immediately if they want to. An NCAA player can't until after they finish (or leave) school. Plus, a CHL player goes back into the draft instead of becoming an UFA.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by StrykerSteve

The UFA piece is what bothers me about this. There are so few opportunities for an NHL player to control their own destiny and that is something which is earned through years of service. Becoming a UFA is a big deal. I would just prefer to see unsigned players always re-enter the draft, so they too, can earn the right to become a UFA. Otherwise it is a disservice to the guy that's put in his seven years.

I get why it is the way it is, but I'll continue to dislike it.

What about a guy like Jooris, who wasn't on anyone's radar during his draft-eligible years? He developed into a solid player over his three years at college and he was able to sign as a UFA with the Flames. Should he have had to go through the draft at 23?

Over the next few weeks, as NCAA teams are eliminated from the playoffs, we'll be seeing a lot of undrafted college guys signing contracts with NHL teams. None of them will be forced to sign with one specific team, yet, a teammate who just happened to be good enough to catch a scout's eye when he was 17 only has one team he can sign with once his college career is over.


Let's be honest, if this was a big enough concern for teams, they would stop drafting players who were going to go to college. That's not happening. In fact, I believe the number of College or College-bound players being drafted has been on a steady rise in recent years.

Not only is the college system a good place for players to develop their skills, but drafting a college player gives a team four years of "ownership" of the player without needing to commit to a contract, as opposed to the two years they get with junior players. For a late-round pick, it can be tough to know what you have in a 20 year-old, where it's much easier to know where you stand with a 22 year-old.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by codynw

Uhhh, what?

NHL clubs retain the exclusive right of negotiation for services of College players through and including the August 15 following the graduation of his college class. For picks out of Major Junior and Europe the expiry date of exclusive rights retention is June 1. August 15 is two and a half months more then June 1.

[Parallex]

Honestly, I think the only thing that needs reworking is the compensation provided for teams with draft picks that refuse to sign. If I were the league I'd change that to something more like MLB's compensation system.

Offer compensatory picks one slot below their original slot for rounds 1-3 provided that the picking team offered the original pick a max ELC contract no more then one month prior to the expiry of negotiating rights (to prevent teams from deliberately punting picks to later years). Failure to sign the compensatory pick results in the forfeiture of further compensation.