Supreme Court of Canada overturns ban on doctor assisted suicide

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Man, this comment shows just how far we still have to go before mental illnesses are treated with the same compassion we treat physical illnesses. If you've been suffering from crippling, soul-sucking, debilitating depression with no end in site for a few decades, I don't understand what you think gives you the right to say, "sorry, you have to hang in there for another 25 years."

I absolutely think mental illnesses should qualify for doctor-assisted suicide in the same way and under similar criteria as physical illnesses qualify.

It would be much nicer for somebody to go through a doctor and the closure process of assisted suicide (which may actually lead to positive help, if available!) than to go to their garage with a rope for their wife to find them hanging.

The argument for me is if Depression is curable, or if its not curable because people either don't seek help or people don't recognize the signs.

Mental illnesses are usually fairly curable through a combination of drugs and therapy.

The World Health Organization at one point said that 25% of chronic depression cases weren't cured due to the person not seeking help or people not recognizing the signs.

The question is not about should we let people kill themselves because of the depression? Its about how can we be more effective as a society in identifying and promoting mental health cures.

So no I don't agree that someone with depression, or schizophrenia or various other mental illnesses should be part of a terminal disease assisted suicide strategy.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

The argument for me is if Depression is curable, or if its not curable because people either don't seek help or people don't recognize the signs.

Mental illnesses are usually fairly curable through a combination of drugs and therapy.

The World Health Organization at one point said that 25% of chronic depression cases weren't cured due to the person not seeking help or people not recognizing the signs.

The question is not about should we let people kill themselves because of the depression? Its about how can we be more effective as a society in identifying and promoting mental health cures.

So no I don't agree that someone with depression, or schizophrenia or various other mental illnesses should be part of a terminal disease assisted suicide strategy.

This problem is actually kind of a red herring. It will likely be exceedingly rare for someone to go through the process of physician assisted suicide strictly because of mental illness. Almost all cases of suicide from mental illness are impulse. They're not going to file applications and go through interviews

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I honestly don't know, man. In some cases it doesn't seem to be. I think some people can live in abject misery for way too long, though. It would be nice for them to have a humane, dignified way to take their final bow rather than in a way that must feel shameful/sad/scary/lonely/etc.

Could be most people in that position don't need doctor assistance to die?

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

The argument for me is if Depression is curable, or if its not curable because people either don't seek help or people don't recognize the signs.

Mental illnesses are usually fairly curable through a combination of drugs and therapy.

The World Health Organization at one point said that 25% of chronic depression cases weren't cured due to the person not seeking help or people not recognizing the signs.

The question is not about should we let people kill themselves because of the depression? Its about how can we be more effective as a society in identifying and promoting mental health cures.

So no I don't agree that someone with depression, or schizophrenia or various other mental illnesses should be part of a terminal disease assisted suicide strategy.

Mental illness is a terminal condition for thousands of people in Canada. And those are just the suicides that get reported as such. There are a lot of overdoses and other methods of ending things that aren't classified as suicides, but probably should be.

Think of it this way: happy people aren't killing themselves. Plus, going to a doctor to inquire about assisted suicide automatically triggers help. A doctor is going to evaluate you. A psychiatrist is going to evaluate you. You're automatically in the system that is your only hope for help.

I also wouldn't say mental illnesses are curable. That's too optimistic. They can often be managed, but to say they can be outright cured is a stretch from what I've seen. I'm not an expert, though.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by troutman

Could be most people in that position don't need doctor assistance to die?

Quite likely, but I don't think that means we would necessarily want to exclude them from consideration. I think it's more progressive to include them in that category to legitimize the suffering. Plus a few may go down that route, and it's important for them to have the option in the same way people with physical suffering will have the option.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

The argument for me is if Depression is curable, or if its not curable because people either don't seek help or people don't recognize the signs.

Mental illnesses are usually fairly curable through a combination of drugs and therapy.

The World Health Organization at one point said that 25% of chronic depression cases weren't cured due to the person not seeking help or people not recognizing the signs.

The question is not about should we let people kill themselves because of the depression? Its about how can we be more effective as a society in identifying and promoting mental health cures.

So no I don't agree that someone with depression, or schizophrenia or various other mental illnesses should be part of a terminal disease assisted suicide strategy.

Curable is the wrong word. You can manage it and sometimes it can go into remission, but for most people the illness is always there. To add to this, many people suffering from mental illness don't want to take medication because the side effects are as bad or worse than the illness. So back to Silver's point, if you're one of those people, why is it anyone else's business what you do with your body. Why should governments and complete strangers have the right to tell you to keep living your own personal hell?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Curable is the wrong word. You can manage it and sometimes it can go into remission, but for most people the illness is always there. To add to this, many people suffering from mental illness don't want to take medication because the side effects are as bad or worse than the illness. So back to Silver's point, if you're one of those people, why is it anyone else's business what you do with your body. Why should governments and complete strangers have the right to tell you to keep living your own personal hell?

Because with a illness in the terminal stage there's no hope for a cure. There's no reason for a person to suffer physical pain.

I don't see it that way for mental illnesses that can be managed or find the right balances of drugs.

I'm fine with assisted suicide for people with physical illnesses that will end in only one way and that's death. and the path to that death is suffering.

Mental illness doesn't work in the same way, a person can live and function and be treated with a mental illness.

When you have a person in a terminal stage of something like Cancer or some of the other terrible physical killers, the only thing that you can do is pretty much try to make the person comfortable and wait for death.

There's not a stage like that for depression.

I think one of the judgement categories for allowing a person to use assisted suicide is, is there no cure, is the only path death, is the patient going to suffer unnecessarily.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Because with a illness in the terminal stage there's no hope for a cure. There's no reason for a person to suffer physical pain.

I don't see it that way for mental illnesses that can be managed or find the right balances of drugs.

I'm fine with assisted suicide for people with physical illnesses that will end in only one way and that's death. and the path to that death is suffering.

Mental illness doesn't work in the same way, a person can live and function and be treated with a mental illness.

When you have a person in a terminal stage of something like Cancer or some of the other terrible physical killers, the only thing that you can do is pretty much try to make the person comfortable and wait for death.

There's not a stage like that for depression.

I think one of the judgement categories for allowing a person to use assisted suicide is, is there no cure, is the only path death, is the patient going to suffer unnecessarily.

Except you're assuming that some mental illness being treatable = all mental illness being treatable. There are cases of mental illness that are not treatable or, like I said, where the treatment provides relief of the mental illness at the expense of other areas to the point where it's a zero sum game. It also seems like you're treating physical pain with more reverence than mental pain, which is pretty unfair.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Because with a illness in the terminal stage there's no hope for a cure. There's no reason for a person to suffer physical pain.

I don't see it that way for mental illnesses that can be managed or find the right balances of drugs.

I'm fine with assisted suicide for people with physical illnesses that will end in only one way and that's death. and the path to that death is suffering.

Mental illness doesn't work in the same way, a person can live and function and be treated with a mental illness.

If only.

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

When you have a person in a terminal stage of something like Cancer or some of the other terrible physical killers, the only thing that you can do is pretty much try to make the person comfortable and wait for death.

There's not a stage like that for depression.

I think one of the judgement categories for allowing a person to use assisted suicide is, is there no cure, is the only path death, is the patient going to suffer unnecessarily.

I can understand your point of view. I would likely be right there with you if I hadn't seen mental illness (depression, bi-polar, etc.) in somebody close to me that ultimately ended in suicide. I was relieved for them when they were gone.

Hopefully one day we'll treat mental illness like physical illness - or - maybe we'll have better treatments with higher success rates for the mentally ill. Until then, if an anguished soul has had enough, I would be more comfortable if they had the option of a more dignified way to leave.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

So you're telling me the vast majority of CPC supporters approve of this?

If you are just going to invent opinions and assign them to me, then you're just wasting my time here because it is clear you are not willing to debate what I actually did say.

As to the rest, citations please.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

If you are just going to invent opinions and assign them to me, then you're just wasting my time here because it is clear you are not willing to debate what I actually did say.

As to the rest, citations please.

Do you seriously think NDP and Liberal supporters are against this? The CPC is the party that attracts the pro-life folks, and that is not debatable in any way, it's a clear fact. The other parties have consistently supported pro-choice for life (abortion or otherwise), the CPC has clearly not.

That you personally are for this doesn't mean party is. The fact the party intends to do nothing with this until after the election indicates they do not support this, if they did they would say so right now and it'd be over, but we know they aren't going to do that. So if the majority of the base is for it, it should be approved quickly don't you think? What other reason do they have to not to other than not wanting to piss their base off? Most Canadians clearly support this, so tabling it doesn't make sense for any other reason other than politics (i.e. not pissing the base off).

They'll table it until after the election, and if they lose it doesn't matter and if they win they'll do what they did for C-36 and make a convoluted law that effectively keeps it illegal (like doctors can legally do it, but patients aren't legally allowed to enquire about it).

[Resolute 14]

Now you're just deflecting, Clay.


Anyway, on the mental illness angle, the problem there is that the court has decided that being in a sound mind is one of the criteria to be 'eligible'. It is possible, of course, to qualify as both, but hard to do so.

[Flames_Gimp]

alright! I'm doing it, who's going with me?

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Flames_Gimp

alright! I'm doing it, who's going with me?

In!

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Flames_Gimp

alright! I'm doing it, who's going with me?

We'll get some beers and jump on in!

[Thor]

This is a must watch:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/being-mortal/