11 year old girl who discontinued chemotherapy for alternative medicine dies

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by polak

On the individual level, humans have shown that they are completely capable of having complete disregard for their childrens well being, even if they are competent. Society as whole, on the other hand, doesn't have this issue.

And with that we might as well turn over our children at birth and have them raised by some sort of centralized means overseen by the "informed."

[polak]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

And with that we might as well turn over our children at birth and have them raised by some sort of centralized means overseen by the "informed."

Parents get their chance. If it is deemed that they are unfit, they lose it.

This is exactly what you get from your mentality. Kids dying from completely avoidable causes.

[automaton 3]

I am faced with people's stupidity, impulsiveness, poor decision making and the horrible things people do to each other on a regular basis so perhaps I'm a bit jaded.

I think for the most part, people try to do the best for their children. However we have to recognize that even well-meaning people sometimes make really terrible choices.

[AcGold]

Originally Posted by Nyah

The sad part is that there is an overwhelming amount of BS 'science' & misinformation out there. If you're making the decision for yourself, then sure, it's up to you. But if your child has a highly treatable disease, that's generally deadly if left untreated, and you decide that you did enough Internet research to come to the conclusion that you can naturally treat your child with food & environment changes...I think there's a huge problem. It heads into the 'failing to provide the necessities of life' category.

While I agree with you I would prefer a society with ignorance and mistaken conclusions over fascism and mandatory medical treatments. We can learn from other people's mistakes but if the government can force people to receive treatment that's a dark line that gets crossed. Things like in the movie changeling become possible where people are diagnosed based on political motivation and misdiagnosis is likely.

Analogy of securing my own house or soldiers standing on the street guarding everything. Self-regulated decision making is better than bureaucratic mandates, mistakes as a result from ignorance are much better than mistakes resulting from the removal of liberty and freewill. People are responsible for their own children, not the government.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by AcGold

While I agree with you I would prefer a society with ignorance and mistaken conclusions over fascism and mandatory medical treatments. We can learn from other people's mistakes but if the government can force people to receive treatment that's a dark line that gets crossed. Things like in the movie changeling become possible where people are diagnosed based on political motivation and misdiagnosis is likely.

Analogy of securing my own house or soldiers standing on the street guarding everything. Self-regulated decision making is better than bureaucratic mandates, mistakes as a result from ignorance are much better than mistakes resulting from the removal of liberty and freewill. People are responsible for their own children, not the government.

The problem is this resulted in the preventable death of a child. One who arguably had no say in the matter because their mind can't fully form their own rationale, so they defer to their parents.

What if you enlisted your kid to help you secure your house, and he shot himself with the gun you gave him?

[AcGold]

Originally Posted by MattyC

What if you enlisted your kid to help you secure your house, and he shot himself with the gun you gave him?

Then it was a dumb mistake because obviously it's a bad idea, but atleast the right to make stupid mistakes still exists.

Yeah it sucks a child died, a lot. Better than the government having the power to force treatment though, governments have been caught doing terrible things throughout history so giving them medical carte blanche is unwise imo. Let's learn and get smarter so that the same mistake doesn't happen, what was her specific illness? What specific information did the parents mistakenly follow? How can you and I stop it from happening again?

It's not the governments responsibility to take care of us because given the power they will just abuse it. Let's move away from asking the government to help us out, given the power they will incrementally become less beneficial.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by MattyC

The problem is this resulted in the preventable death of a child. One who arguably had no say in the matter because their mind can't fully form their own rationale, so they defer to their parents.

What if you enlisted your kid to help you secure your house, and he shot himself with the gun you gave him?

The kid in this case didn't die from cancer though. The kid died from a stroke. I'm not sure to what degree the stroke can be associated with the cancer, treatment or lack thereof.

It also wasn't a preventable death because it only has a 75% survival rate. The kid could have done the chemo and still died. At that point do we blame the medical community and government in the same manner that the parents are being blamed?

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

If a child's parents are capable of making sound and logical decisions they should have the right to not acceptable treatment.

There was nothing sound or logical about the decision.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

The kid in this case didn't die from cancer though. The kid died from a stroke. I'm not sure to what degree the stroke can be associated with the cancer, treatment or lack thereof.

It also wasn't a preventable death because it only has a 75% survival rate. The kid could have done the chemo and still died. At that point do we blame the medical community and government in the same manner that the parents are being blamed?

What exactly are we supposed to blame the medical community for, putting her cancer into remission? she was responding well to the chemo, she would still be alive if she'd continued with it.

[polak]

I cant believe people are arguing for the right for parents to essentially kill their child.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by AcGold

Yeah it sucks a child died, a lot. Better than the government having the power to force treatment though

How is a dead child better than an alive child that was forced to accept potentially life saving treatment?

[AcGold]

Originally Posted by Bagor

How is a dead child better than an alive child that was forced to accept potentially life saving treatment?

Where did I say that?

[Bagor]

What are you saying then?

[CalgaryFan1988]

Originally Posted by polak

Parents get their chance. If it is deemed that they are unfit, they lose it.

This is exactly what you get from your mentality. Kids dying from completely avoidable causes.

It's not as simple as you're making it out to be. It's where do you draw the line?

You can't have courts deciding things, I'll give you a prime example.

Person gets the disease, they are given 3 months to live, they can go on chemo and immediately feel nautious, or not take anything and enjoy what little time they have left.

The way you are saying, is they should immediately have to go on chemo, not have any say in the matter, then they die anyways and didn't even get to enjoy another day. It's not just cut dry, no two cases are the same.

It's also possible that the article doesn't have all of the facts, which has been known to happen.

The parents made a bad choice, but you can't take away their right to choose. If you think they should, then maybe you've never had to deal with the disease, if that's the case lucky you.

.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by CalgaryFan1988

It's not as simple as you're making it out to be. It's where do you draw the line?

You can't have courts deciding things, I'll give you a prime example.

Person gets the disease, they are given 3 months to live, they can go on chemo and immediately feel nautious, or not take anything and enjoy what little time they have left.

The way you are saying, is they should immediately have to go on chemo, not have any say in the matter, then they die anyways and didn't even get to enjoy another day. It's not just cut dry, no two cases are the same.

It's also possible that the article doesn't have all of the facts, which has been known to happen.

The parents made a bad choice, but you can't take away their right to choose. If you think they should, then maybe you've never had to deal with the disease, if that's the case lucky you.

.

Yes you can take away their right to choose, we do it all the time if they abuse their kids, think it's ok to pimp them out or beat on them or leave them alone for a few days with a box of Cheerios.

If an adult wants to refuse treatment so be it, I agree they have the right, but when a parent decides to let their kid die, whether it's by beating and starving them to death or refusing chemo, we have every right to intervene. These parents killed their kid, that they loved her while killing her is utterly irrelevant.

[CalgaryFan1988]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Yes you can take away their right to choose, we do it all the time if they abuse their kids, think it's ok to pimp them out or beat on them or leave them alone for a few days with a box of Cheerios.

If an adult wants to refuse treatment so be it, I agree they have the right, but when a parent decides to let their kid die, whether it's by beating and starving them to death or refusing chemo, we have every right to intervene. These parents killed their kid, that they loved her while killing her is utterly irrelevant.

So where do you draw the line? That's the problem here, as I see it.

In this particular case, the kid should have had treatment (according to our limited information), but how do you pick and choose which kids should be forced and which shouldn't be? These decisions need to be made on the spot, not with the benefit of hindsight.

[Thor]

What angers me so much is not really the parents, yeah they were dead wrong, but the natural remedy movement and the lies the continually spout about what they can do "naturally" for their patients. They skirt laws and avoid responsibility in all kinds of shady ways, this Hippocrates institution is about as disgusting as they come, do read about them:

http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/aboriginal/...lves-1.2832760

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by CalgaryFan1988

So where do you draw the line? That's the problem here, as I see it.

In this particular case, the kid should have had treatment (according to our limited information), but how do you pick and choose which kids should be forced and which shouldn't be? These decisions need to be made on the spot, not with the benefit of hindsight.

That's why we have court, the kids taken into care, they all go in front of a judge and he or she decides what's in the best interest of the child.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by AcGold

Where did I say that?

You said it right here. You said it exactly:

"Yeah it sucks a child died, a lot. Better than the government having the power to force treatment though"

[Thor]

Next victim of Hippocrates institute sadly coming soon I think...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/aboriginal/ma...ight-1.2926885

But while it is too late for Makayla, it's not too late for another First Nations girl with leukemia. Her mother took her out of chemotherapy at McMaster last August after 12 days of treatment.

Makayla Sault, girl who refused chemo for leukemia, dies
'Doctor' treating First Nations girls says cancer patients can heal themselves
Her doctors gave her a 90 to 95 per cent chance of survival with chemotherapy, but cautioned that the longer they wait, the harder the fight will be.

​We can't identify her, other than by the initials J.J., because of a publication ban, but I've met her and her mother.

I spent a morning with them at their home on a First Nation near Brantford, Ont., in November.

When we arrived, J.J. was preparing her "green drink" of wheatgrass and juiced raw vegetables. Raw vegetables have been pretty much the only thing she's been allowed to eat since she left chemotherapy in August.

But if she minded, she didn't say. She didn't say much of anything actually. She was quiet and shy but very sweet, and like most children in a frightening situation, she looked often to her mother to guide her.