Flames Player Lists: Core Pieces, Support Pieces & Expendable

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by Eric Vail

The general consensus around here is that Iginla should have been traded earlier while his value was high.

The current general consensus sounds like Giordano is considered an untouchable and cannot be traded.

Am I misinformed on these two statements?
Why the difference?

Primarily the teams are in much different positions. Iginla's Flames were holding onto the dream of the old core and a bubble spot in the standings. Gio's Flames are early in a rebuild.

What are your thoughts, though. Do you think Gio should be traded now? Giving how you allude to Iginla staying on too long it would seem that's what you're hinting at. Personally I'm much happier with him here, leading the young players.

[Stay Golden]

Originally Posted by GGG

The one name I would think is expendable is Hudler.

He has 1 year left on his deal and lots of teams could use him. You wouldn't do it this year but in the off season if he could be moved for a young defensemen who is almost ready i think you do it. Especially if Pourier makes some noise when he is called up and you need to make room for him.

Hudler will be 31 and looking for a 5 year deal and a raise. I don't think a 5yr 20mil deal gets it done and I know I wouldn't want to go any higher that long.

If the Flames move a player of substance like Hudler is they will never improve and it shows the Monahans and Gaudreau's that management Ownership does not value you as 32 year old forward.
So you don’t think Hudler has earned a 5m per year contract based on his production. Laughable he currently is in that company.
Hudler would be fine with a 3 year deal i believe if his role remains the same.
If the Flames trade Hudler lets say because hypothetically he wants 5m. Than i would question what Edwards expects to pay a Winger who is putting up right now the same stats as much higher paid stars that are both younger and older.
Hudler 11th in the NHL what more do the Flames want out of a 4m guy.
Trade him No Way!

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Finger Cookin

I don't think any of those five players deserve to be promoted to group B. The list seems like as much a random grab bag of names as anything else.

You got me

I just tossed a whole bunch of names together without any thought

Sorry

I always wonder if internet wanks are great people in real life that need to act out, or equally as annoying in person.

Two goaltenders with great resumes, two up and coming defensemen in the system that are creating a buzz, and a center that I think is a future 3rd line center and possible captain.

But yeah ... just tossed together.

[Vinny01]

Core/unmovable: Monahan, Bennett, Gaudreau, Brodie, Giordano, Porier, 2015 1st

Pieces I would move if a core piece was coming back:
Granlund, Hudler, Colborne, Russell, Wortherspoon, Klimchuck, Baertschi, Backlund, 2015 2nd

Trade them if ya want:
Glencross, Jones, Raymond, Bollig, Stajan, Wideman, Smid, Engellend, Diaz, Byron, any late round pick

I also don't mind of one if the goalies is moved and Ortio is brought up at the deadline. In terms of prospects I don't have much internet in moving any junior players but in terms of pros I have no issue if Reinhart, Knight, Agostino, Hanowski, Van Brabant, were packaged in deals.

[FlamesAllTheWay]

Lots to consider so just a few things to start, regarding some points already brought up:

- Hudler: You have to look at last season and this, and the progress of the team and it's players, and think we're probably ahead of schedule on a 5 year rebuild of just getting back into contention. In which case a guy like Hudler starts to move closer to untouchable territory. Having some of his best years in Calgary playing with Monahan, Gaudreau, etc, and is only 30 years old.

- Colborne: Jury's still out on him but so far I'm not sure what to expect. Aside from the shootout he's sort of been "meh" for me, to date. I believe that he has to clear waivers to be sent down is a big reasob he's stuck around at times since he's arrived. Definitely not untouchable for now.

- Byron: I would not be so quick to put him on the "trade for whatever" list. I think he's an ideal 3rd liner - quick, versatile, makes smart plays and is decent defensively. That he's been a regular all season says to me the coaching staff must also see something positive and consistent in his play. Also only 25 and if he scored on a couple more of his breakaways I bet he'd move up a few people's list.

Just a few thoughts, nice thread!

[Finger Cookin]

Originally Posted by Bingo

You got me

I just tossed a whole bunch of names together without any thought

Sorry

I always wonder if internet wanks are great people in real life that need to act out, or equally as annoying in person.

Two goaltenders with great resumes, two up and coming defensemen in the system that are creating a buzz, and a center that I think is a future 3rd line center and possible captain.

But yeah ... just tossed together.

I didn't mean to push your buttons so badly, so sorry I struck a nerve. Perhaps I could have worded my reply better - I guess I meant to say that I don't see how any of the five players you mentioned can be considered support pieces for the club yet. Yes, it's nice that we have prospects in the pipeline coming through the system with promising futures that could *turn into* support pieces in the future. But I guess I just don't see the five you listed as being there yet, at least not above and beyond any other prospects coming up who aren't named Sam Bennett.

Other people could have listed another list of five players, each with a bullet point summation (say, Jankowski, Ferland, Kulak, Klimchuk, and Weatherspoon) and I would still take issue with them being part of a support group. For me, putting them in that group assumes capabilities at the NHL that none of them have demonstrated yet.

Again, sorry that I struck a nerve.

[Badgers Nose]

My list of guys I would trade is way shorter:

Untouchables are:
- Gaudreau - no brainer IMO
- Monahan - no brainer IMO
- Bennett - no brainer IMO
- Giordano - no brainer IMO
- Brodie - he and Gio are elite pairing
- Hudler - team leader in points
- Granlund - what's the rush? Have to keep if Backlund goes.
- Sven- what's the rush?
- Colborne - was a steal, late bloomer that will probably improve each year for the next 4-5
- Backlund - corsi stud, need at least one
- Jooris - imprtant sparkplug
- Bouma - will do anything to win
- Glencross - cheap 20 goal scorers are rare
- Stajan - faceoff insurance policy, fits well on every line

Available for a decent return:
- Smid - keep for 5-7 d slot
- Engelland - - keep for 6-7 d slot, healthy scratch most nights
- Raymond - better than Jones, fits well on every line

After training camp if Culkin is legit and earns a spot, move one of the following guys:
- Russell - was a steal, pairs awesome with Wideman
- Wideman - a top goal scoring d-man, exactly as Feaster advertised

Guys I would trade:
- Byron - small, plays big but can't find the net
- Jones - paid to score, doesn't
- Diaz - small and does not have enough skill to make up for it, I would like Wotherspoon to come is as the 4.5 guy and push Smid, Englellund and Dias down.

[BACKCHECK!!!]

I present your 2018 Western Conference Finalist Calgary Flames!!!

New Guy - Bennett - New Guy

Gaudreau - Monahan - Poirier

Baertschi - Backlund - Ferland

Glencross - Bouma - New Guy


New Guy - Brodie

Giordano - New Guy

Russel - Wotherspoon


I tried to fill each roster spot from within the organization by the player best suited to it. The spots labeled "New Guy" are the positions for which I don't think there is a realistic candidate in-house.

Thats the group I would build around. Nobody on that list is good enought to be 'untouchable'. Everybody not on this list should, IMO, be put on the market to acquire the "New Guys".

[savardandjokinen]

Originally Posted by BACKCHECK!!!

I present your 2018 Western Conference Finalist Calgary Flames!!!

New Guy - Bennett - New Guy

Gaudreau - Monahan - Poirier

Baertschi - Backlund - Ferland

Glencross - Bouma - New Guy


New Guy - Brodie

Giordano - New Guy

Russel - Wotherspoon


I tried to fill each roster spot from within the organization by the player best suited to it. The spots labeled "New Guy" are the positions for which I don't think there is a realistic candidate in-house.

Thats the group I would build around. Nobody on that list is good enought to be 'untouchable'. Everybody not on this list should, IMO, be put on the market to acquire the "New Guys".

Where's klimchuk

[killer_carlson]

I think Wideman has earned every nickle of his contract this season and then some. He gets moved up high on the available for the right price list. Right next to Hudler.

Backlund - can't have a guy on the 2nd line who you need to create injury contingencies for on an annual basis. It means you need 7 top 6 forwards instead of 6 and that creates problems on those days when all are healthy. If Backlund is ok with being a top 9 guy and be paid like a top 9 guy, then great, but he is available in any event.

Butler - got a lot of good press this year, but is nevertheless replaceable with guys on the farm. I think if we trade him we are selling high. If we don't trade him, he is ok because of his price point. Not much more though unless he puts the puck in the net for 10 to 12 goals this year.

[Calgary4LIfe]

In my opinion, Ferland needs to be added to the 'core group'.

He will probably never be a PPG player (though you never know, and I used the word probably there), the Flames really need a guy like him. You almost need to when you have guys like Bennett and Poirier in the lineup being aggressive. Even if that wasn't the case, there isn't a team in the NHL that doesn't absolutely love a big man that can skate, thinks the game well, can beat up on most of the other players on the team, and has good hands. Though I wouldn't classify Ferland as a 'top 6' guy, I do think he has a good enough shot and soft enough hands that you can throw him up on the top two lines and not have him kill the offence. Now and then, you will need to throw someone up like him on those lines to ride shotgun.

Also, I read somewhere (and didn't have time to respond at the time) to a poster saying Austin Carrol is pretty much equal to Ferland. I disagree completely. I like Austin Carrol, and I do think he is a very good prospect to have in the system, and I do think he can actually be a solid NHL'er that is very difficult to play against on the bottom line. I think offensively Ferland is a better prospect, and I think his physical presence is even much more imposing than Carrol's (and once again, I say this being a big fan of Carrol's game and really do think he is a very good prospect).

Colborne I think is working his way up to being a 'core' guy on the untouchable's list. He is great on the boards now (and wait until he gets another year or two's worth of training). He has great hands. He is great on the shoot-out. It would have to be a very lopsided move for me to be happy with trading away Colborne. I don't think he is part of the core now, but I do think he is working his way there. Looking at the rest of the division (and the Western conference), having big players that are skilled seems to be so important.

Finally, Backlund. I think he is in the same area as Colborne - almost a core piece. His health and his mediocre offence keeps him in the 2nd group, but who is better on this team at shutting down the opposing players? Monahan has been fantastic, and should remain the #1 center I think (he is still growing in his role, and looking more than competent already). However, Backlund seems like he is the de facto 'shut-down' center. Flames PK last year was decent (18th), and this year so far without him they are 26th. Considering the Flames have had Giordano all season, and have a better tandem in net then last year, I would say the PK is missing Backlund.

Backlund has a great attitude, gives the team exceptional skating and stamina, and the closest thing they have to a shut-down presence since Yelle. If he can increase his faceoffs, he is a 'core' player in my mind (and it is not out of the question - having more centers who are competent at that to practice against should help that out, in theory).

One final note on Backlund - We all see those 'flashes' of offensive ability - brilliance at times. I look back at who the Flames used him with and they were never good fits. Backlund is a fast skater - I think he needs fast linemates. Now that Monahan is doing well at 1st line duties, I would love to see Backlund get a long look with Gaudreau and Hudler. I think he can do really well with them. If he doesn't (after a long look), then I will accept that Backlund is who he is offensively and stop thinking there will be improvement. I do think he does have untapped offensive potential in his game. I would like to see if he was utilized with more complimentary players, how he would fare offensively.

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by Eric Vail

The general consensus around here is that Iginla should have been traded earlier while his value was high.

The current general consensus sounds like Giordano is considered an untouchable and cannot be traded.

Am I misinformed on these two statements?
Why the difference?

The team was built around Iggy, so 'post apex' we knew what direction the Flames were heading. It made sense to start the rebuild as soon as it was obvious he could not carry the team anymore.

The future was sold, during Iggy's prime, to get him the support Flames management thought he needed. So when the decline started there was nothiing in the system.

With Gio, he is awesome and may be a point leader this year, but that is just a happy surprise. What he will be most remembered for is installing culture of hard work and accountability. He'll be able to do that in 5 years as the 5-6 guy on the D depth chart.

Flames are deep now, and he has more value as a member of the team than as an asset.

[BACKCHECK!!!]

Originally Posted by savardandjokinen

Where's klimchuk

Probably playing 3rd line minutes for an Easern Conference team, after he's packaged with other picks and prospects for one of the big guns we need.

The Flames already have several middle-of-the-rotation wingers that I think will be better than Klimchuk.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by BACKCHECK!!!

I present your 2018 Western Conference Finalist Calgary Flames!!!

New Guy - Bennett - New Guy

Gaudreau - Monahan - Poirier

Baertschi - Backlund - Ferland

Glencross - Bouma - New Guy


New Guy - Brodie

Giordano - New Guy

Russel - Wotherspoon


I tried to fill each roster spot from within the organization by the player best suited to it. The spots labeled "New Guy" are the positions for which I don't think there is a realistic candidate in-house.

Thats the group I would build around. Nobody on that list is good enought to be 'untouchable'. Everybody not on this list should, IMO, be put on the market to acquire the "New Guys".

Few things.

1)Hard to fathom a new guy being better than Gaudreau for the #1 LW spot.

2)Baertschi will be top 6 or gone in 3 years.

3)Glencross wants big cake for his next contract, can't see him being a 4th liner.

[FlameZilla]

I don't really like the concept of 'making room for young players', but guys like Granlund, Jooris, Ferland and Baertschi have made a really good case for themselves as NHLers. Once Backlund is back and Raymond slots back in (inevitable IMHO) Jooris and Granlund are the most likely players to be sent down because of waiver exemption, and that completely sucks.

Guys like Byron, Bouma and Colborne are established NHLers now and doing a great job on the team, but they are in direct competition with the guys mentioned above. All 3 are young with some potential, and all 3 have had a positive impact on the team, but are they a part of the future here? There is no definitive answer; it's all subjective and based on each fan's perception of what this team needs going forward. Byron and Bouma bring speed, toughness and heart which are integral to a successful energy line. Can you really replace the level of commitment and personal sacrifice Bouma makes for this team every night? Colborne has great size and hands and has come along leaps and bounds recently.

I'm not an advocate of 'trading all the vets', but if one or 2 of the non-essential vets were traded (Jones, Raymond, Stajan, Smid: I'm looking at you) for young-ish talent on the blue line then it would go along way towards accommodating all our most talented, NHL-ready forwards. That's the most pressing place where the team is feeling the squeeze of this current logjam of very good depth forwards.

This is my assessment of the organisation:

A) Young Core: The Untouchables.

Monahan, Brodie & Gaudreau

B) Veteran core leadership: Setting the example; detrimental to trade them

Giordano, Hudler & Hiller

C) Top Prospects: Potentially part of the core; too early to definitively tell

Bennett (here because, well... 'counting chickens'), Poirier, J. Gillies, M. McDonald, Culkin, Klimchuk, Jankowski, Arnold, Smith, Gilmour, Hickey & Rafikov

D) Young Complimentary players: NHL-ready support players; untapped potential

Backlund, Russell, Baertschi, Colborne, Bouma, Jooris, Granlund, Ferland, Wotherspoon, Byron, Ramo & Ortio

E) Complimentary Prospects: Potentially useful role players

Kanzig, Sieloff, Reinhart, Knight, Carroll, Hanowski, Agostino, Van Brabant, Kulak, Roy, Mattsson, Wolf, Ramage, Harrison, Acolatse & Elson

F) Veteran Complimentary players: The Expendables IV: Cap Floor Edition

Glencross (only here because of UFA status and rumoured salary expectations), Wideman, Stajan, Raymond, Jones, Engelland, Smid, Bollig, Diaz & McGrattan

__________________________________________________ _________

A), B) & C) are untouchables.

D) & E) are players I would be weary of trading, but could understand losing one or two if it brought back a monster return.

I would have no problem if I heard Treliving was actively shopping any (but not all) of the players in category F). You could potentially get NHL-ready prospects for some of them and it wouldn't be catastrophic to the rebuild.

[FlameZilla]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

I think Wideman has earned every nickle of his contract this season and then some. He gets moved up high on the available for the right price list. Right next to Hudler.

Backlund - can't have a guy on the 2nd line who you need to create injury contingencies for on an annual basis. It means you need 7 top 6 forwards instead of 6 and that creates problems on those days when all are healthy. If Backlund is ok with being a top 9 guy and be paid like a top 9 guy, then great, but he is available in any event.

Butler - got a lot of good press this year, but is nevertheless replaceable with guys on the farm. I think if we trade him we are selling high. If we don't trade him, he is ok because of his price point. Not much more though unless he puts the puck in the net for 10 to 12 goals this year.

[BACKCHECK!!!]

Originally Posted by T@T

Few things.

1)Hard to fathom a new guy being better than Gaudreau for the #1 LW spot.

2)Baertschi will be top 6 or gone in 3 years.

3)Glencross wants big cake for his next contract, can't see him being a 4th liner.

1) Good as he is, I don't think Gaudreau will last long playing legit 1st line minutes against western conference playoff teams. Maybe he would survive, but I don't think it's a good idea to lean on him that heavily.

2) Baertschi's future is yet to be decided. I see no reason why he can't be a successful secondary scorer in the middle of the roster.

3) Glencross will probably get his pay day, but he's still going to play wherever in the roster his performance justifies it. I don't see him playing better than guys like Sven and Johnny 3 years from now.

[lanny9]

Originally Posted by FlameZilla

I don't really like the concept of 'making room for young players', but guys like Granlund, Jooris, Ferland and Baertschi have made a really good case for themselves as NHLers. Once Backlund is back and Raymond slots back in (inevitable IMHO) Jooris and Granlund are the most likely players to be sent down because of waiver exemption, and that completely sucks.

Guys like Byron, Bouma and Colborne are established NHLers now and doing a great job on the team, but they are in direct competition with the guys mentioned above. All 3 are young with some potential, and all 3 have had a positive impact on the team, but are they a part of the future here? There is no definitive answer; it's all subjective and based on each fan's perception of what this team needs going forward. Byron and Bouma bring speed, toughness and heart which are integral to a successful energy line. Can you really replace the level of commitment and personal sacrifice Bouma makes for this team every night? Colborne has great size and hands and has come along leaps and bounds recently.

I'm not an advocate of 'trading all the vets', but if one or 2 of the non-essential vets were traded (Jones, Raymond, Stajan, Smid: I'm looking at you) for young-ish talent on the blue line then it would go along way towards accommodating all our most talented, NHL-ready forwards. That's the most pressing place where the team is feeling the squeeze of this current logjam of very good depth forwards.

This is my assessment of the organisation:

A) Young Core: The Untouchables.

Monahan, Brodie & Gaudreau

B) Veteran core leadership: Setting the example; detrimental to trade them

Giordano, Hudler & Hiller

C) Top Prospects: Potentially part of the core; too early to definitively tell

Bennett (here because, well... 'counting chickens'), Poirier, J. Gillies, M. McDonald, Culkin, Klimchuk, Jankowski, Arnold, Smith, Gilmour, Hickey & Rafikov

D) Young Complimentary players: NHL-ready support players; untapped potential

Backlund, Russell, Baertschi, Colborne, Bouma, Jooris, Granlund, Ferland, Wotherspoon, Byron, Ramo & Ortio

E) Complimentary Prospects: Potentially useful role players

Kanzig, Sieloff, Reinhart, Knight, Carroll, Hanowski, Agostino, Van Brabant, Kulak, Roy, Mattsson, Wolf, Ramage, Harrison, Acolatse & Elson

F) Veteran Complimentary players: The Expendables IV: Cap Floor Edition

Glencross (only here because of UFA status and rumoured salary expectations), Wideman, Stajan, Raymond, Jones, Engelland, Smid, Bollig, Diaz & McGrattan

__________________________________________________ _________

A), B) & C) are untouchables.

D) & E) are players I would be weary of trading, but could understand losing one or two if it brought back a monster return.

I would have no problem if I heard Treliving was actively shopping any (but not all) of the players in category F). You could potentially get NHL-ready prospects for some of them and it wouldn't be catastrophic to the rebuild.

Three pages I had to read through to see one mention of Kanzig!!!? Lol Don't know but a 6'7" 240lb stay at home dman could make life very hard for a lot of opposing players who dare to come near the front of the net. I'm not going to sell this guy short, he obviously puts a lot of work and dedication into keeping a huge body at 8 percent body fat, so I'm willing to give him a few years to learn the pro game. He may surprise some in a few years imo.

[FlameZilla]

Originally Posted by lanny9

Three pages I had to read through to see one mention of Kanzig!!!? Lol Don't know but a 6'7" 240lb stay at home dman could make life very hard for a lot of opposing players who dare to come near the front of the net. I'm not going to sell this guy short, he obviously puts a lot of work and dedication into keeping a huge body at 8 percent body fat, so I'm willing to give him a few years to learn the pro game. He may surprise some in a few years imo.

I could see him as an NHL bottom pairing guy. A physical beast who inspires fear? Useful prospect to have, but not very likely to be the kind of player you build a defence around.

[lanny9]

Originally Posted by FlameZilla

I could see him as an NHL bottom pairing guy. A physical beast who inspires fear? Useful prospect to have, but not very likely to be the kind of player you build a defence around.

Yeah, I should have said that, I never see him more than 5/6, but someone who can really strike fear into the opposition. Imagine getting hit by him in the corner, with his physique it would be like getting hit by a Mack!!