Notes from Dec 30 practice - Raymond likely scratched against the Oilers

[heep223]

We keep talking about Granlund/Jooris potentially getting sent down when Backlund returns...but maybe if Raymond can't get his stuff together he will sit instead. Colborne can slide to wing and Bob's your uncle. Actually I think Backlund and Colborne have complementary styles, that might just work with Byron providing speed and pressure beside them.

I like Raymond's game in concept but he just doesn't look the same, as others have noted he looks to have lost a step and seems to be hesitant to initiate contact.

It's really tough to send Granlund down. That line is on fire. I just don't think that you can.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by heep223

We keep talking about Granlund/Jooris potentially getting sent down when Backlund returns...but maybe if Raymond can't get his stuff together he will sit instead. Colborne can slide to wing and Bob's your uncle. Actually I think Backlund and Colborne have complementary styles, that might just work with Byron providing speed and pressure beside them.

I like Raymond's game in concept but he just doesn't look the same, as others have noted he looks to have lost a step and seems to be hesitant to initiate contact.

It's really tough to send Granlund down. That line is on fire. I just don't think that you can.

Actually, Bob's the coach.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by Locke

Actually, Bob's the coach.

Out of thanks. Thanks!

[BigFlameDog]

Originally Posted by shermanator

Jooris has outperformed Raymond consistently since he has been up, albeit with most of Jooris' time with the club being while Raymond was out.

Raymond has been invisible since he returned from injury. Hopefully a benching gives him the kick in the ass he needs.

I wish he was.........highly visible for the wrong reasons.

[browna]

Originally Posted by Locke

Actually, Bob's the coach.

I've got an Uncle named Bob so that post sounded fine to me.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by browna

I've got an Uncle named Bob so that post sounded fine to me.

Is he the porcupine at the balloon party?

[stemit14]

The struggles of the veteran additions (setoguchi, Bollig, Raymond) over the season so far makes me hope treliving learns from this next summer and doesn't go looking for more vets to take the spots of young players already in the organization. I agree with the concept of competing for spots but I also feel like there are more than enough guys in the system who are NHL-ready and can create enough healthy competition without having more vets to take the spots. As it is right now... Baertschi, granlund, ferland, and Bennett will all be fighting for 1-2 spots next season to make the team out of camp. There will likely be even more guys than that who surprise in camp just as jooris did this year.

All that said, I think Raymond can contribute to the team. I hope sitting a game will get him going again.

[CsInMyBlood]

Raymond totally reminds me of how Val Bure would play when he didn't have the puck.

Useless and weak, waiving his stick at guys as they go around or skate by him.

Glad he is getting benched.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by heep223

We keep talking about Granlund/Jooris potentially getting sent down when Backlund returns...but maybe if Raymond can't get his stuff together he will sit instead. Colborne can slide to wing and Bob's your uncle. Actually I think Backlund and Colborne have complementary styles, that might just work with Byron providing speed and pressure beside them.

I like Raymond's game in concept but he just doesn't look the same, as others have noted he looks to have lost a step and seems to be hesitant to initiate contact.

It's really tough to send Granlund down. That line is on fire. I just don't think that you can.

I think at some point (maybe not during the season) the Flames have to make a choice and decide that one of the Grandlund, Backlund or Jooris is going to be the odd man out and trade one of them for return that will help on the back end.

All things should be considered such as the value of the return they would get, long term role on the Flames, injury potential (Backlund) and style of play for this club.

HOPEFULLY, we have a good 1-2 brewing with Bennett and Monahan (I know, counting chickens before hatching on Bennett), so there really isn't long term spots for one of Jooris, Backlund, Grandlund and Stajan. Would love to jettison Stajan, but he's not going to have the appeal the other 3 might have in a trade, so it could be an opportunity to improve the club. But maybe waiting until Bennett establishs himself more is the way to go.

But honestly, it probably pains people to hear it, but I think it becomes a choice between Backlund and Grandlund based on roles and abilities. I don't think Jooris attracts the value either, and when healthy we could have Monahan, Bennett, Backlund / Grandlund, Jooris / Stajan with Colborne able to slide over as well. Starting to be a depth spot and strength, and we should probably use it to sure up some weaknesses (young D depth or RW).

[killer_carlson]

I think you could flip a coin between Raymond and Byron right now, as both are not producing and both should be in the press box.

[dammage79]

Raymond can sit. He's been scared of the puck and any contact since he came back.

I wonder if he isn't even 80% healthy when it comes to his shoulder. Sure doesn't seem that confident out there still.

Too bad, as I thought Raymond was awesome before he got injured. I still believe that player is in there somewhere but he's too tentative right now.

[Badgers Nose]

Raymond does not look 100%. I agree.

We'll see after the benching if he bounces back (mental) or still flounders a bit (shoulder).

[Hemi-Cuda]

I'm really questioning why Treliving gave Raymond a three year contract. I'm guessing he's regretting that move now after seeing how good the farm players are, but even so Raymond just last year needed to do a pro-tryout before being able to get a contract. I'm really hoping Treliving can figure out some way to dump that contract before next season, especially with Bennett likely to make the jump

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Badgers Nose

Raymond does not look 100%. I agree.

We'll see after the benching if he bounces back (mental) or still flounders a bit (shoulder).

Completely agree. It almost looks like they rushed him back. I dont know why they would though, the team was kicking ass and taking names so there was no need to rush him.

Maybe they didnt, but he doesnt look ready or comfortable,

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by Locke

Completely agree. It almost looks like they rushed him back. I dont know why they would though, the team was kicking ass and taking names so there was no need to rush him.

Maybe they didn't, but he doesn't look ready or comfortable,

I think it's a variation: the kids are playing so well that it puts pressure on the vets to come back quicker.

We see it, so for sure the players do too; kids are earning spots all over the place on this team.

It's a good culture that vets want to be part of. And Mason is local so there is that too. They don't want to lose their spots.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Badgers Nose

I think it's a variation: the kids are playing so well that it puts pressure on the vets to come back quicker.

We see it, so for sure the players do too; kids are earning spots all over the place on this team.

It's a good culture that vets want to be part of. And Mason is local so there is that too. They don't want to lose their spots.

Very good point.

[The Original FFIV]

Originally Posted by Locke

Completely agree. It almost looks like they rushed him back. I dont know why they would though, the team was kicking ass and taking names so there was no need to rush him.

Maybe they didnt, but he doesnt look ready or comfortable,

Apologies if already mentioned but wonder why some of the vets weren't sent to addy for conditioning especially with duration of time missed.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by The Original FFIV

Apologies if already mentioned but wonder why some of the vets weren't sent to addy for conditioning especially with duration of time missed.

Its disrespectful? And maybe detrimental?

Disclaimer: Thats a pure guess.

But you dont often see teams send veteran players on AHL conditioning stints, they usually keep them around the team and put them into practices.

[sureLoss]

players have to agree to conditioning stints and most veterans don't agree to it

from the CBA

13.8 Conditioning Loan. Unless a Player consents, he shall not be Loaned on a Conditioning
Loan to a minor league club. Such Conditioning Loan shall not extend for more than fourteen
(14) consecutive days. The Commissioner may take whatever steps he deems necessary to
investigate the circumstances under which a Player is Loaned on a Conditioning Loan. If the
Commissioner has reason to believe or determines that the Club has used the Conditioning Loan
to evade Waivers, or otherwise Circumvent any provision of this Agreement, he may take such
disciplinary action against the Club, as he deems appropriate. The Player shall continue, during
the period of such Conditioning Loan, to receive the same Paragraph 1 NHL Salary, and be
entitled to the same benefits, that he would have received had he continued to play with the Club.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by stemit14

The struggles of the veteran additions (setoguchi, Bollig, Raymond) over the season so far makes me hope treliving learns from this next summer and doesn't go looking for more vets to take the spots of young players already in the organization. I agree with the concept of competing for spots but I also feel like there are more than enough guys in the system who are NHL-ready and can create enough healthy competition without having more vets to take the spots. As it is right now... Baertschi, granlund, ferland, and Bennett will all be fighting for 1-2 spots next season to make the team out of camp. There will likely be even more guys than that who surprise in camp just as jooris did this year.

All that said, I think Raymond can contribute to the team. I hope sitting a game will get him going again.

The problem is you are using hindsight to make this comment. And what drives me nuts is people think what hingsight is telling them, is that Treliving made an mistake in the veteran signings this season because the youngsters have outplayed them........but he didn't.

What would have been a mistake is "counting" on the kids to do what they've done this year. As you said yourself, the vets needed to be brought in to create competition for the youngsters and the spots, and to give a balance to ensure that we were able to ice a roster in the NHL, should a young players development be better served by time in the AHL (even if they are better than some of the vets).

I'm sure Treliving is just as happy as all of us that some of his vets are being made expendable. It's likely happening sooner than expected, but not something he's going to look back on and go "oh shoot I shouldn't have done that". There was 0 reason for him or anyone to think many of our young guys were going to be as close to ready as they were, and Treliving signed responsible contracts this offseason. Sure he overpayed for a few guys, but I'm pretty sure he knows he did, and did so on purpose because it was the only way given the Flames lack of appeal to the UFA market at that point, and he also knew it wasn't a problem given our cap space. He was also very disciplined with term, which is the bigger key.

Now he's left with the admirable problem of potentially having to drop some of these vets earlier than he'd thought he'd have to, not a bad issue at all and he has no rush to do it either. I don't doubt, given what he's seen from the young guys this season that he will change up his approach in the upcoming offseason, or at least reduce the number of vets he brings back, but that won't be "learning from mistakes of the past" that will be just him embracing the new situation this team is in following this season, one where we actually have young players ready to make the jump.

And don't get me wrong, this is not me showering Treliving with praise. He has had the easiest job in the league IMO to date. Inherit a team, where all you had to do is go out and sign some vets to plug spots and create competition, with little to know salary cap pressure. Then, all the young guys on your team who you didn't bring in start beating expecations, and your next task becomes re-sign the coach that got them there. He's had an easy time of it to date, which is also not his fault, but tougher times are a head for him as we are now getting into interesting decision time for Treliving, so time will tell how he does.