Calgary Flames Culture Starting To Catch Notice

[Tinordi]

Do you guys really feel the need to trash iginla rather than just be happy with the team? He was a great player and captain for this team for a long time and the flames have another great captain and player in giordano today.

Correction we have a much better captain today than we ever did with Iginla.

[stemit14]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Correction we have a much better captain today than we ever did with Iginla.

See right there... This desire to slight iginla for some reason. I'm not trying to say either one was better than the other... I'd rather be proud that both of them were great for this team.

Thought this thread would be more positive but instead it seems like some of you are just using it as an opportunity to bash iginla. No thanks.

[GoJetsGo]

Iginla was widely regarded as the best Captain in the league during his peak. And guys like Tinordi were hating on him even then. Consider the source. His attempt to derail the topic with his tired, long standing bitterness speaks for itself.

[FlameZilla]

Originally Posted by TheDebaser

I kinda think Glenn Healy just feels like he needs to start saying nice things about Calgary before we collectively burn him at the steak.

Mmmmmmm... steak.


I would give Healy an ounce (maybe 8 ounces) of respect if he could talk about anything hockey related without bringing up the Leafs.

[-TC-]

Originally Posted by TheDebaser

burn him at the steak.

or the stake...or burn him WITH a steak

either way, roasted meat

[heep223]

Originally Posted by -TC-

either way, roasted meat

Tainted meat! Taaaaiiiiinnnnteed meeeeeeaaaatt!!!

[PsYcNeT]

If nothing else, Captaincy is overrated.

[Calgary4LIfe]

I think Iginla will become an even more polarizing figure in the years to come. In '04, was there a better captain? I don't think so. I think very few players in this league have been able to be that captain that Iginla was that year.

Iginla's first brush with criticism came with Playfair. We all know how well that turned out. Perhaps Playfair just wasn't ready to be a coach. However, there were a few things that happened that year to make you question the character of that team a bit.

Then you kept hearing (from Darryl himself) that this team is 'Hard to coach'. Then you see the country-club atmosphere amongst some of the players. You start hearing a bewildered Brent Sutter in the media, and he started insinuating a few things (but nothing directly against Iginla, IIRC).

However, one thing was undeniable throughout Iginla's tenure as a captain - he would often stand up and do the right thing. If it meant he needed to fight, he would fight. If he needed to face the media after a tough loss, a blowout, or yet another series of "will you waive" questions, he stood up there every time and was both polite and patient. Remember Conroy blasting a couple of Flames (I think it was Giordano and Cammy, actually, though maybe I am wrong) about having Hanowski sitting all alone? Obviously that didn't happen when Iginla was around and captain.

I think it is fair to both criticize Iginla and laud him. I think he probably deserves both in some ways. However, I don't think there is a captain out there who has a team that doesn't meet expectations lauded very much in the NHL. Jump into a GDT on HF for a random team, and you will see even long-time captains - especially long-term captains of franchise that seem to be on the downswing - being highly critical of their captain. Staal in particular is getting criticized for exactly that - Carolina had a rough start, and fans there seemed a bit disgruntled and were hoping that Staal gets traded so that the culture would change.

I have been a huge Hartley supporter and I think he is the impetus behind this change. I also think that Calgary hasn't had a good coach since Darryl stepped down. Playfair wasn't ready. Keenan was semi-retired. Sutter seemed to have one system he was trying to force-feed that didn't fit the Flames. Is that partly on the Flames being "a hard team to coach"? I think it is. I also think it was a long list of poor coaching hires. Hartley has been great.

I do think that this team is easier to coach. There are no expectations with the club last year. There were slightly more expectations this year - not for placement in the standings, but to see if this team would have the same effort most nights like they did last year. You have kids trying to compete for spots, and it doesn't take a genius to figure out how things in the NHL work - Rookies always have to prove themselves more than vets do.

With that being said, Edmonton never had this culture with their rebuild - at least not outside of a string of games. Chicago never had it until Toews/Kane came along. I don't think Pittsburgh had it until they canned Therien and brought in Bylsma and some good vets. I think 'culture' is something that is very easy to destroy, but very difficult to build. I think it is difficult to lay the groundwork and keep making sure it is headed in that direction. I think it takes a strong coach and a strong veteran presence to keep it going.

I just think a change was needed. Coaching staff, GM and players. Feaster used to say it was a 'disease' - that is how I felt about it often as well. Just something stunk with the Flames all those years since '04. It wasn't just the let-downs. It was how they happened. I think the culture was ruined from that '04 team with Darryl trying to increase the speed and skill-level of the Flames. He definitely did a great job - nobody is going to argue that this team was less skilled even in his last season than that '04 team. That '04 team had a strong identity - tough, resilient, persistent, angry and altruistic. They would block shots, they would fight, they would grind you up and down the boards and hit you every chance they got. They would all collapse down-low and block pucks. That team worked very, very hard for each other. If ever there was a team that was greater than the sum of their parts, it was the '04 Flames. Who thought that would have been it? That team was a machine out there. An angry, antagonistic scary machine that I don't think any team looked forward to facing in the regular season, much less a 7-game playoff series.

It seemed that every year, with every adjustment Sutter made, that team ended up gaining much more skill, but losing something else along the way that made them a bit less than the sum of their parts. I actually quite liked Darryl - even as a GM (other than those moments of insanity we don't need to cover again). I think we all loved his trades for the most part. The 'I am not going to make a move' and then BAM! Jokinen. Tanguay. Bouwmeester! Guys like Huselius out of nowhere. Without question, he dramatically increased the skill-level of this team, but it lost its' culture. Teams stopped being afraid of Calgary. They also started seeing how Calgary would just stop playing hard. Chicago embarrassed Calgary coming back from a 5-0 deficit and winning the game 6-5. That was one of the last daggers in the heard of the team, and it had been on life-support ever since. Everyone saw the Flames for what they were - some really great pieces to a few different puzzles. "Is it a city? Nope.. I think it is leopard. No, I think it is forming a country scene." Flames became a bunch of puzzle pieces to various different puzzles and not one of them had a picture of what it was supposed to look like after.

I think a young team needs a coach exactly like Hartley. He DOES yell at you on the bench (just ask Backlund when he made a huge error). He will put you in your place. He will also build you up. He will teach you. He will demand hard-work and buy-in, and he will sit you and demote you if you don't do both. You need a guy to come in and lead a team and teach them how to be. You also need a captain like Giordano - an experienced vet who works hard. Someone that is responsible on and off the ice. In-season, and in the off-season. Someone with leadership abilities (obviously of course).

Could it have been Iginla? Could Iginla have taken this rag-tag group of youth with Hartley as a coach and been leading them as well as Giordano has been? I think even most of the Iginla fan-boys (of which I include myself) would probably say "no" quietly and sadly. I don't think he would have been the best choice for where the team is now, and for where he is in his own career. However, I do think that for some years, he was the best damned captain in the game, and he often carried this team kicking and screaming on his back, and that is how I will choose to remember Iginla on the Flames.

[BloodFetish]

^extremely well said. Would thank again.

[#-3]

I just think the most positive change we saw when Iginla left, was that we no longer had a player who had the power to say, I want to play with Alex, regardless of how things have been going.

I was arguing that it was not his fault he did it, he never should have been aloud to do it in the first place.

But to liken that to a guy who would not buy into a coach preaching work-ethic is fallacy.

I believe Iginla would have had no problem working as hard a Hartley expects, but management allowed him to insulate his friends, and that became a problem.

(This is just what I believe, mostly because I just can't believe one of the fittest people around would have a work ethic issue.)

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by #-3

(This is just what I believe, mostly because I just can't believe one of the fittest people around would have a work ethic issue.)

I don't have any trouble believing that. Fitness and on-ice doggedness are different things. I do believe there is a correlation between how hard players practice and how hard they play, and by all accounts Iginla was pretty half-assed about practice in his last few years in Calgary. That's not unusual for veteran superstar players. But it does affect the culture of a team.

Late-Flames-era Iginla had a lot in common with Brett Hull. Nobody is going to suggest Hull wasn't a great player and a deserved hall-of-famer. But nobody is going to suggest he was a great leader-by-example for a young team, or acted like another coach on the ice, either.

[Fozzie_DeBear]

Originally Posted by Locke

The Townsend Tigers would epically destroy the Edmonton Oilers.

Even in toe drags?

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Fozzie_DeBear

Even in toe drags?

Oh, you went there.

No, thats the one thing the Oil do well, they'd have that stat locked up as usual.

[waner]

The Iginla wasn't buying into what the coach wanted or wasn't a great leader seems like a lot of revisionist BS to me but I guess people are going to believe what they want to make themselves feel better about the current team.

The "problem" with the Iginla flames had nothing to do with him and everything to do with the team being an aging, mediocre team that needed a rebuild but didn't have a GM with the intelligence (Feaster) to make the necessary moves. This meant Iginla was stuck on teams where he had to do way too much with little to no help and now it seems the fact he was surrounded by guys with little to no talent is somehow his fault.

The so-called "positive" change since he left has resulted in a 4th and 6th last place finish and not a whole lot of success on the ice. The team is getting better results on the ice this year early on but hard to see how anyone can actually believe that has anything to do with Iginla not being here. This team would be better with Iginla on the team and as the captain on the ice and off of it.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by waner

The Iginla wasn't buying into what the coach wanted or wasn't a great leader seems like a lot of revisionist BS to me but I guess people are going to believe what they want to make themselves feel better about the current team.

The "problem" with the Iginla flames had nothing to do with him and everything to do with the team being an aging, mediocre team that needed a rebuild but didn't have a GM with the intelligence (Feaster) to make the necessary moves. This meant Iginla was stuck on teams where he had to do way too much with little to no help and now it seems the fact he was surrounded by guys with little to no talent is somehow his fault.

The so-called "positive" change since he left has resulted in a 4th and 6th last place finish and not a whole lot of success on the ice. The team is getting better results on the ice this year early on but hard to see how anyone can actually believe that has anything to do with Iginla not being here. This team would be better with Iginla on the team and as the captain on the ice and off of it.

Iginla was IMO a great leader, on and off the ice.

That said, the GM with "limited intelligence" Feaster was tied up by the owners to agreat degree, unless I've read your post wrong and you are referring to Sutter as the GM and Feaster as the one with intelligence. I think Treliving is probably an upgrade on Feaster, but at the same time, the progress so far is largely on Feaster's transactions and drafts.

Then you say the should have been rebuilding, and at the same time question the finishes over the last couple years. Where do you think a rebuilding team usually winds up in the standings? And how do they rebuild without losing vets like Iginla (the last to go)?

[heep223]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

That team worked very, very hard for each other.

I think if I had to boil down what culture means on a hockey team, it's this. That's why I love hearing Hartley building up the guys as people, not just as players.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by heep223

I think if I had to boil down what culture means on a hockey team, it's this. That's why I love hearing Hartley building up the guys as people, not just as players.

Agreed, best thing going on right now is this is a all about a team, and not about the individual player.

[waner]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

That said, the GM with "limited intelligence" Feaster was tied up by the owners to agreat degree, unless I've read your post wrong and you are referring to Sutter as the GM and Feaster as the one with intelligence. I think Treliving is probably an upgrade on Feaster, but at the same time, the progress so far is largely on Feaster's transactions and drafts.

No Feaster is definitely the one with no intelligence and the owner tying his hands debate has been dealt with way too much already. Sutter has as much, if not more on the progress of this team than Feaster (Gio, Brodie, Bouma, Backlund, Stajan, Glencross), but again that has been dealt with plenty on this board as well.

Iginla was part of the hardest working team in Flames history and one that also got results. To see people try to change history and just flat out make up BS about him is tiring.

Any talk about him not fitting into to what the team is doing now is flat out BS.

[GioforPM]

What the team is doing is a youth movement. That's the main reason he doesn't fit into the plans. Especially where it will culminate in 3 years or so. The man will be 40. Power forwards are not power forwards at that age.

And I still don't see how you can complain about the rebuild not happening sooner AND suggest Iginla should still be here.

You can't make points about what Feaster did and at the same time shut down counterpoints simply by saying "they've been dealt with". A. I wasn't here then and B. I'm sure the people making those counterpoints don't think they've been rebutted.

[waner]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

What the team is doing is a youth movement. That's the main reason he doesn't fit into the plans. Especially where it will culminate in 3 years or so. The man will be 40. Power forwards are not power forwards at that age.

And I still don't see how you can complain about the rebuild not happening sooner AND suggest Iginla should still be here.

I don't think he fits in with the team now both from his perspective and the teams perspective and I don't think they should bring him back.

But I do think that if he was here the team would still be doing the exact same things, he would be "buying into" what the coaches are teaching and the team would be a slightly better team based on the fact he is better than all of our forwards and possibly all of our players.

But considering the team is rebuilding having a 37 year old being a key part of the offense makes little sense as the team should be trying to get younger guys to fill those roles and the slight improvement we get from him on the ice in the short term likely hurts long term development of other guys.