No Trinity graduates in this Norway wilderness company................

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

I am talking about the legality and morality of your position, because I view it as both illegal and immoral.

As an employer, you have no idea about how the college this woman had attended would be negatively affecting her performance on the job or work ethics. None. And nevertheless, you are justifying the negative hiring decision, because you don't like the Christian belief covenant she had to sign prior to her college admission? This presumption and decision can and should be legitimately challenged in courts or HR tribunal.

Also, as hiring person, you have no idea about the real beliefs of the prospective candidates - you only know what they tell you in most cases. And even then you have the right ask about what's relevant for the job description only. Someone against abortions for ANY reason should not be hired to work at an abortion clinic, for example.

No matter how you put it, your position regarding this woman's background is rooted in YOUR personal opinions and beliefs about her background, which makes it immoral.

Exactly. I have no idea what her beliefs are, only the institution which she attended.

Said institution requires all students to be in agreement (or complacent) with discrimination based on sexual orientation.

It doesn't matter that it's Christian. It's irrelevant to my decision.

What matters is the person applying at one time deemed it acceptable to discriminate based on sexual orientation. In a job where my employee will interact with clients, why would I hire someone who has found it is acceptable in the past to discriminate based on sexual orientation?

My position is neither illegal or immoral.

Show me, if you can, where an employer is forbidden to hire based on the educational institution of the prospective employee, or past examples of poor ethical behaviour that would conflict with the current job to which they are applying?

EDIT: To clarify my last point, "poor ethical behaviour" does not relate to their beliefs, but their actions. Like I said earlier, I would hire a Jewish person without any question, but I would not hire someone who poured melting lead down their wife's throat regardless of what religion they are part of. Much like this situation, I would hire a Christian person without question, but I would not hire someone who was complacent in the discrimination of others, regardless of their religion. It's the actions that matter, not the belief.

[killer_carlson]

Originally Posted by oling_roachinen

sorry, how is a twu student any different than say a catholic in this regard?

the catholic church and its leader also discriminates against gay marriage. And surely eating a man's flesh every week is a more explicit agreement with the rules of catholicism than signing a piece of paper.

wtf?

[Kjesse]

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

Show me, if you can, where an employer is forbidden to hire based on the educational institution of the prospective employee, or past examples of poor ethical behaviour that would conflict with the current job to which they are applying?

I don't know the answer to this, but you've stated the question in a manner that probably wouldn't result in the correct legal answer-- though you could try to advocate it that way.

Discrimination based on religious grounds is prohibited, and I don't think that just because it is the institution attended, not necessarily the person themselves, that was the trigger for the employer's distaste, results in insulating the potential employer from a successful claim. It is the religious view attributed to the person who attended the school in issue, in the most discriminatory sense... this employer said, you attended there, therefore you must be like them because you are all the same. That's exactly what discrimination is about.

[Chill Cosby]

To add:
If TWU took out the portion of their covenant that discriminated against homosexuals (under threat of expulsion or non-admittance) OR did not require students to sign it, I would have no problem hiring from there.

I have no problem with an employee attending an institution that promotes religious faith. I only have a problem with institutions that deny entry based on the particular birth-traits of certain students.

EDIT: Are the positions of the Law Societies of each province that refuses to recognise the degrees obtained at the TWU Law School, based on the covenant students are obligated to sign, against the law?
http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/canada/brit...hool-1.2778849

Both Ontario and Nova Scotia won't be recognising TWU law degrees based on the current state of the covenant, and it's looking very much like BC won't either.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

wtf?

I don't think it will come to a shock to you that Catholic priest aren't performing gay marriages right now, so it's probably the latter part of that paragraph. Catholic's, as a way of professing their faith, partake in the Eucharist and through a process called transubstantiation believe they are eating the body of Christ. At least that's the Catholic Church's teaching.

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

To add:
If TWU took out the portion of their covenant that discriminated against homosexuals (under threat of expulsion or non-admittance) OR did not require students to sign it, I would have no problem hiring from there.

I have no problem with an employee attending an institution that promotes religious faith. I only have a problem with institutions that deny entry based on the particular birth-traits of certain students.

They have the same stance as the Catholic Church. They aren't discriminating against homosexuals, they just don't want them to marry and have sex (just want to be clear this sentence was meant to be tongue in cheek, but also accurate). I see no difference between the TWU student and a Catholic who follows the Church's teachings, they both believe the same thing. I'm not saying those teachings/beliefs are right, but I don't think employers should be automatically throwing out resumes because they disagree with the person's religion.

I don't see any argument separating a Catholic University of Calgary alumni or a TWU Student. They are both freely part of an institution that has made known their stance on gay and premarital sex.

[FlamesAddiction]

So what if you turned it around.

Say for argument sake that the employer was a conservative Christian. Would you be offended if the employer outright dismissed an applicant citing that the university they went to did not match his Christian values... especially considering that the job has nothing to do with religion?

[You Need a Thneed]

A couple of points:

1. The intent of covenants such as these is not to discriminate. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't be revised to avoid apperance of discrimination. I think this is a fairly easy change.

2. Signing a covenant such as this doesn't mean that you agree with the covenant, but rather that you agree to follow the rules of the covenant for the time period in which you have a relationship with the entity. This may seem subtle, but it's actually a huge difference.

3. Life is filled with many similar covenants - many of them implied. Basically any relationship you have with an employer or place of learning will have at the very least, an implied moral covenant.

[CaptainCrunch]

She was no longer a member of the university, she could pretty much have changed or not agreed with it, but signed it to gain admission to get a education.

You're making assumptions or stereotyping students based on where they went to school and your applying their values without asking.

So in a sense you are applying a stereotype to a person and because of that your discriminating in the most classical sense of the word.

If someone attended a mosque that has been labeled as extremist you don't have the right to disqualify them from employment based on that.

You can terminate if she started to preach her views in the workplace and it created a work place conflict.

[Chill Cosby]

So out of curiosity, what's the difference between my position, and the position of the province of Ontario, which won't be allowing TWU law students to practice law there?

Why are they legally allowed not to recognise any degree obtained at that school based on the covenant each student has to sign, while some of you consider it wrong not to hire someone based on the very same thing?

[CaptainCrunch]

The government has a right to recognize or not recognize a schools credentials just like they have a right to give or not give degree granting status based on set criteria.

As an employer you don't have the right to deny an individual employment based upon an assumed premise or personal opinion, especially one based around things like religious beliefs.

You also can't apply a general stereotype to an individual in forming a decision to hire. IE she went to this school so she must hate gays.

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

The government has a right to recognize or not recognize a schools credentials just like they have a right to give or not give degree granting status based on set criteria.

As an employer you don't have the right to deny an individual employment based upon an assumed premise or personal opinion, especially one based around things like religious beliefs.

You also can't apply a general stereotype to an individual in forming a decision to hire. IE she went to this school so she must hate gays.

I have a right to deny someone employment based on the institution they attended though.

And I'm not applying a general stereotype. I certain don't think everyone who went to TWU hates gays, nor have I ever suggested that, that's just a strawman.

[You Need a Thneed]

Ultimately, I believe that the province of Ontario will likely lose that battle in court.

[CaptainCrunch]

Only if the institution dosen't meet an educational requirement on the job.

You cannot discriminate against a graduate because you think that they follow the institutes view point on Gay Marriage.

you can discriminate against them in terms of they don't teach the skills that they require on the job.

And I would say that you are applying a general stereo type when you say I won't hire anyone from there because of the views of the institution.

Its not a strawman at all.

It would be no different from me saying I won't hire this guy from lets say this mosque or church or group because they say that woman are not first class citizens.

I have no sense of idea if that perspective employee believes it, but I'm applying the beliefs of that specific institution and applying it to an perspective employee, and that is stereotyping and discrimination.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

Ultimately, I believe that the province of Ontario will likely lose that battle in court.

I was going to say, that one will probably be lost unless they can prove that TU is producing un prepared or inferior lawyers.

[Kjesse]

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

So out of curiosity, what's the difference between my position, and the position of the province of Ontario, which won't be allowing TWU law students to practice law there?

Why are they legally allowed not to recognise any degree obtained at that school based on the covenant each student has to sign, while some of you consider it wrong not to hire someone based on the very same thing?

This is a good point. I'm not saying anyone's right or wrong here, I think this will go all the way to the SCC because its a contentious issue of national importance. Here's their stance in as short a way as I can put it: It is not proper to accredit a law school teaching the Canadian Constitution as the fundamental foundation of our society and democracy when those attending are forced as a condition of admittance to abandon its tenants.

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Only if the institution dosen't meet an educational requirement on the job.

You cannot discriminate against a graduate because you think that they follow the institutes view point on Gay Marriage.

you can discriminate against them in terms of they don't teach the skills that they require on the job.

And I would say that you are applying a general stereo type when you say I won't hire anyone from there because of the views of the institution.

I'm going to leave it at this just because now it's going in circles:

It has nothing to do with views, or beliefs, or what anyone thinks about gay marriage or anything like that. I don't care if you don't care for gay people or Muslims or love Two and Half Men. Talking about what someone says at a mosque is completely irrelevant in comparison to what the educational institution which granted you your degree (a requirement of the job you're applying for) teaches you and requires you to adhere to.

The school promotes discrimination. Discrimination is ethically wrong and in many cases illegal. Thus, in a business that is very focused on clients and the acceptance of any and all clients regardless of race or gender or sexuality or whatever, I do not deem the education provided at the school to be valuable to our company. My view is reinforced by the fact that all students are made aware of that discrimination and agree to it. That's not a stereotype, that's a fact.

The school practices discrimination, the students sign a form acknowledging the discrimination, and therefore the education received at that institution is without the required value this company looks for when hiring employees.

Like it or not, I can hire you or not hire you based on where you went to school and the education you received. That's what I do. That's what all employers do (especially for hires without extensive experience). We look at your education and make a value judgement. It's no different than if I know an institution's program does a poor job of teaching the things we utilise most. That resume is disregarded.

Maybe that's discrimination... but hey, welcome to hiring, where we discriminate based on education and work experience every single day.

[Violator]

Went to high school with a lot of people that were going to TWU after high school.Its in such an odd area back from the road and out in the middle of nowhere.

[GGG]

What if trinity was the only school they could get in.

Should they go to a school and sign the piece of paper or should they wait and upgrade. Any acreddited degree granting institution should be good enough.

I'm amazed that you would discriminate against some who goes to an institution that discriminates. Pot meet kettle.

[afc wimbledon]

You can reject anyone you want based on any reason you want, race, creed, colour, no problem, what you can't do is tell them why, dumb dumb dumb.
Some one from HR needs to sit down with Odin there and teach him how to send the standard boilerplate, 'thank you for your interest, unfortunately....'

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by GGG

What if trinity was the only school they could get in.

Should they go to a school and sign the piece of paper or should they wait and upgrade. Any acreddited degree granting institution should be good enough.

I'm amazed that you would discriminate against some who goes to an institution that discriminates. Pot meet kettle.

I would "discriminate against someone who goes to an institution that discriminates". They signed a piece of paper basically saying some people are not equal. Bit of a giveaway that I won't like working with them.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but it seems to me that anyone who goes to that school is a bit of an idiot to begin with.

I mean for one thing, you should be going college/university there to learn new things, but here they are basically pledging "I'm only going to hear what I already believe, and I'm only going to hear it from people who I know agree with me already". It's backwards.

Also, it is supposed to be fun, and they signed up to go with (and be taught by) a bunch of prudes. That shows terrible judgement!

If I was hiring, this kind of 'education' on a resume would send it right into the no pile.

On the other hand, if I was doing the firing, I'd be firing the guy who wrote these stupid emails to begin with. I'm sure a lot of people are going to avoid this business now.