I made the mistake of engaging CP's Most Obstinate Poster (TM) and distracting from the op, which was really cool. Thanks for the info Titan.
This to me is a very simple issue and I'll never understand why anyone would refuse to stop using the word. And yes, I've read the fallacious floodgate arguments, bizarre logic that 'the next word' will be deemed offensive, or thinly veiled insults attempting humour. They all pretty much amount to "I'm not affected by the word, so why should I change my behaviour just because you want me to?".
There's a small group of people who were identified by a particular word. The word itself, for whatever reason, has taken on a pejorative meaning in general parlance. That word is no longer used by those in the relevant professional fields to define those people. Those people who were defined by that word in the past, their families, and their representative groups, now say "hey, maybe everyone could stop using that word because it fundamentally applies or identifies us, and it is hurtful and we don't like it".
Shouldn't that be the end of it? It takes almost no effort to stop using it, has zero impact on your life, and doesn't in any way hinder your ability to communicate. (If it in any way inconveniences or impacts you, I'd say you've got bigger problems than being unable to use this one word).
I just don't get why this is even an issue. If people in our society are hurt by something and we can remedy it without doing anything, why wouldn't we?
Maybe there needs to be a reason to stop using it. A reason better than "some people find it offensive". Some people find lots of things offensive. Hey, there are some people that find "fatso" offensive. That doesn't stop you, does it?
It's just so random that "######ed" is offensive. Nobody cares about idiot or moron or stupid. Just ######ed. Okay then. Pretty much every word we use to describe something stupid (oops) is a word that some people could choose to be offended by. That's dumb. That's lame. That's stupid.
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Maybe there needs to be a reason to stop using it. A reason better than "some people find it offensive". Some people find lots of things offensive. Hey, there are some people that find "fatso" offensive. That doesn't stop you, does it?
It's just so random that "######ed" is offensive. Nobody cares about idiot or moron or stupid. Just ######ed. Okay then. Pretty much every word we use to describe something stupid (oops) is a word that some people could choose to be offended by. That's dumb. That's lame. That's stupid.
If someone is abused emotionally and or verbally when they are young, hearing the words they were abused with isn't really a choice. It brings up memories involuntarily, as the webpage from the original post mentions.
Black people don't just choose to get offended if you say certain words to them, same with the mentally disabled. Derogatory terms that have been used to abuse groups of people are not random and people don't just choose their reaction. How can you even say what you did? I don't understand where such a viewpoint could come from. Go into a meeting of black people, use derogatory terms and tell them they are choosing to have a dumb, lame and stupid reaction. See how that goes.
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Oh christ. Now I have to worry about what might dig up old feelings of being abused when people are young? And this is on par with the n word? No it's not. It's an actual word from the dictionary that describes someone or something that is slower or less able than average. It's not a made up word used entirely to demean people.
Your choice to be offended by a perfectly legitimate word. Personally, I think it's ######ed.
Exactly what image are you trying to convey to a person that you're calling a "######"? It's offensive because you are very likely hoping they think you are comparing them to a person who was formerly known as mentally ######ed. So, do you think there is any couth to using a group of people as a way of insulting another?
Also, saying that "idiot" and "moron" are synonyms of "######" is as false as saying "black" is a synonym of the n-word.
"Idiot" and "moron" aren't derogatory to any group of people, and don't have the same historical use as "######" did.
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Exactly what image are you trying to convey to a person that you're calling a "######"? It's offensive because you are very likely hoping they think you are comparing them to a person who was formerly known as mentally ######ed. So, do you think there is any couth to using a group of people as a way of insulting another?
Also, saying that "idiot" and "moron" are synonyms of "######" is as false as saying "black" is a synonym of the n-word.
"Idiot" and "moron" aren't derogatory to any group of people, and don't have the same historical use as "######" did.
Maybe we just came from different places. I remember using "######ed" to describe lots of things. It was such a common word that I guess I don't see how it is so offensive. Just like dumb and stupid. I think that comparing it to the n word is ridiculous.
Maybe I'll think about my stance for a bit before I reply again. I'm seriously surprised that there really are a lot of people that are really offended by it. I guess that has to say something. Something I guess I should think about.
When I was in elementary school '######' was used in conjunction with the Gretzky towel-guy gestures. Then in high school it was the 'gay' thing. If somebody called you 'gay' or something similar, they were insinuating you had the stereotypical gay attributes, and that being 'gay' was supposedly bad and as such you should be insulted to have been called it.
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I personally will continue to use this word, just as I continue to use "gay". If I feel it describes a situation, the word will get used. But it will not be used to put others down, or especially not to insult handicapped people.
"Dumb" used to be used to describe people that were mute or deaf. "Brain-dead" or "vegetable" is used to describe people who are alive, but brain damaged. "Feebleminded" and "idiot" have been used to, medically, describe people who are mentally handicapped. "Cretin" was used for people with physical deformities.
You can pick almost any insult and trace it back to having some horrible definition attached to it. Insults are meant to offend, but how much it offends is up to you personally. They only have as much power as you give them.
I'm not going to try and change the world to fit my stupid point of view with regards to words, so neither should anybody else. I might have a list of words that I don't say or use, and there might be some words in that list that others could say and I'd immediately think less of them for it. But that's my problem, and nobody else gives a #### about my problems, so I'm not going to burden anyone with it.
Standing up for somebody who is actually being bullied is different, and my opinion, is fine. Getting outwardly mad at somebody in public for talking to their friends, saying "you're being ######ed" is not fine.
I'm still going to call people "dicks," "pricks," or "cocks" even if that sounds like I'm equating the penis to undesirable actions/people. I'm going to call people "stupid" even if it a less offensive (by some magical metric) word for "######" and I'm still going to say "######" if somebody is acting extra stupid. Because that's all it means to me. It means somebody is making a poor decision. It's not comparing them to a mentally handicapped person. It's saying that their brain, in this moment, has ######ed any growth to allow a smart choice and action. What about when people use "######ed" for something that's cool? Is that bad? Go to any ski hill and listen to how some kids react to the skiers/snowboarders doing tricks.
If you expand your vocabulary and find new words for it, you're not any better. You're putting the same intention and meaning into a new set of letters and sounds to get your point across. It's no different, and it's why words like "idiot" and "dumb" don't mean what they used to. Language is an evolving and fluid thing.
Lets also not get lost on the fact that a poster named "fatso" is claiming offense to the word. I know a few people that would get upset if somebody called them that to their face, and yet here we are.
Last edited by Yasa; 10-04-2014 at 10:48 PM.
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I personally will continue to use this word, just as I continue to use "gay". If I feel it describes a situation, the word will get used. But it will not be used to put others down, or especially not to insult handicapped people.
Why is this not good enough?
It is not good enough because the situation you are describing is one for which you have contempt. If you said, "I ######ed the forward progress of my car by applying the brakes." that would be totally acceptable. If you say Kevin Lowe is ######ed because of how he runs the Oilers, you are attributing the diminished skills and mental acuity of a person with a condition, through no fault of their own, to apply to another person. I fail to see how this would not be hurtful to that person or the people that love them.
You can choose to live your life however you want and say whatever you want. You don't have to agree. That is the beauty of living in a mostly free society.
But if you actually stop and think about the word and why you are saying it then perhaps you will not be so cavalier about your attitude. Or you will decide it is dumb and you don't care what people think and keep using the terms. It really is up to you.
The point is to have people think about it.
The last point I would like to make builds on my one above. How awesome would the word be to you if your child was born autistic, or with Downs or any of the hundreds of other conditions that ######s their mental or physical development or is homosexual? Then your child, which you presumably love with all your heart, is being used to demonstrate how stupid you think Kevin Lowe is.
Would that not sting just a little?
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So now I think we've run the gamut of reasons why people refuse to stop using the word. We've got the false equivalency that people don't complain about other insults such as "stupid" so it makes no sense to complain about this one, the mere opinion that another word will take its place so why inconvenience oneself by stopping use of this one word, the very well thought out, "people everywhere are always upset about something so I should not care about this specific issue", and finally the "it's just a word, it's not a big deal" (yet, ironically, for "just" a word they sure are unwilling to let it go).
Of course, at no point did anyone say why it is important or significant to keep using the word. In fact, I gotta wonder about someone who uses a negative term like "######ed" - or any such word - so much in their daily life that they're fighting to keep using it. It says more about them as a person I suppose than anything else.
Also, I can't help but note that no one took Titan up on his hypothetical a few posts back. I assume those of you who don't see an issue with using the word "######ed" would use it in front of Darryl Sutter to describe your sandwich or the Kings PP? Ya, thought so.
Anyway, I don't really have much to add to my previous post, particularly since Titan is doing a much better job at explicating our position than I can do.
To me it's really just a consideration thing. As Titan says, there's no obligation to be considerate. If you don't care to be considerate, then just say so. If this is where you draw your line, then go forward fighting your good fight maintaining "gay" and "######ed" as descriptors. I hope you sleep easy at night knowing you've kept that corner of the English language alive for the day. I guess we'll see how successful you are twenty years from now.
That said, I don't believe stopping use of the word will end discrimination against the disabled nor do I think it's a particularly noble gesture to stop using it. I do however think not using it is a simple thing I can try to do to make others lives a little better, and which requires no time or effort from me. I really don't think that's such a burden living in a friendly society as we do.
I should address the ad hominem attack which has come up twice now. Briefly, I'll say that my user name is based on two sources. The first is a great Dom DeLuise movie I loved when I was younger called ‘fatso’. My recollection is that it was about developing confidence, even when others don't hold you in high regard because of your appearance. That's why I've only ever had his pic as my avatar from the day I joined this site. The other is from an excerpt from a piece called the Subject of Ideology by Terry Eagleton. One of the things that book is about is the way language and meaning are constantly contested in historical circumstances. I've had 'The Subject of Ideology' in my member biography, also since I joined. No one has ever pm'd me to ask about or discuss it, though I would have gladly had any such conversation. So Yasa, maybe let's not forget that should you choose to mischaracterize me or my position going forward.
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Of course, at no point did anyone say why it is important or significant to keep using the word. In fact, I gotta wonder about someone who uses a negative term like "######ed" - or any such word - so much in their daily life that they're fighting to keep using it. It says more about them as a person I suppose than anything else.
From my first post in this thread:
Quote:
If you look at the word ######, it really is a similar word to one that has no offensive meaning, which is tardy. To be tardy is to be late, and to ###### is to slow down or hinder.
Using the word in it's proper context is what needs to be taught, not that it is a word that should be banned. It's a perfect descriptor for explaining that you are slowing down the group, or impeding the conversation by your actions. It should not be used to call someone dumb, or without capacity of knowledge. That isn't its original meaning. I know words evolve over time, but with the term mental ######ation taken out of the English language, there is no reason to attach the word ###### with it anymore.
It's significant to keep the word because the word is a great descriptive word in the English language, it's wrong to teach someone to restrict how they can express themselves. Saying there is no good way to express to someone they are being slow or doing something that is hindering his or your actions seems like instituting doublespeak into our language, that there is no good way to explain something so you just don't explain it at all.
To be perfectly blunt, banning words just because they could be put in a bad context ######s the English language.
It's significant to keep the word because the word is a great descriptive word in the English language, it's wrong to teach someone to restrict how they can express themselves. Saying there is no good way to express to someone they are being slow or doing something that is hindering his or your actions seems like instituting doublespeak into our language, that there is no good way to explain something so you just don't explain it at all.
To be perfectly blunt, banning words just because they could be put in a bad context ######s the English language.
Fair enough. I appreciate your thoughtfulness on the topic, but I'm not convinced there is a difference between "you're being a ###### to this bbq" and "you're being a ###### at this bbq" other than mere technicality. Maybe I'm giving your point short shrift because I thought the campaign is targeting its colloquial use and your point doesn't adequately address that, at least imo. Maybe I'm wrong though as it is definitely something for me to think about.
I agree with you, though, that context is everything and I don't think the campaign is advocating a ban on the term itself. I don't think they're trying to erase the word from usage entirely, such as in it's scientific application to flammable materials or its use in music theory, for example, is the aim. In that sense, your point about learning to use words correctly, is certainly valid and, I would say, consistent with what I presume to be the aims of the campaign
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