Diversity in the mod team

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Hanna Sniper

BTW I'm not your dude.

It makes me sad when people just don't get it

All those things you mention above can happen to anyone regardless of sex or race and equally just as wrong As you allow it ok to segregate one person then you are no better then those you accuse.

I don't think I'm the one that doesn't get it. If the mod team wants to know specifically which posts are offensive to women and why, who do you think is probably most qualified to answer that question?

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I don't think I'm the one that doesn't get it. If the mod team wants to know specifically which posts are offensive to women and why, who do you think is probably most qualified to answer that question?

He is great in concert.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Hanna Sniper

Saying and doing are two different things.

That's my point. It's already been said, the question is how to do it.

Originally Posted by Hanna Sniper

You can say you want to stop discrimination but your actions show that you feel discrimination is that way to achieve it....

As I said before read up on affirmative action as to why as a temporary measure can result in better outcomes (since outcomes is what we're actually after here right?). There's a lot of people with a lot higher pay-grades than me that feel affirmative action is a good way to remedy the imbalance and that have written that it has been successful in increasing equality and reducing the imbalance. If it's actually successful that would imply your objections are unfounded.

Originally Posted by Hanna Sniper

it's an endless loop that will never change

How can it be endless if it's intended to drive towards a balance? If there was actual equality there would be no affirmative action because it would be superfluous.

I guess the flip side is how do you propose to remedy the imbalance, to bring about equality and reduce discrimination. Because as I said we've already made people equal in sight of the law, but we're still far far away from the same in practice.

How do you effect change, because all you've done so far is say that one way isn't the way to do it?

Originally Posted by Hanna Sniper

If you are correct in saying "in theory you are right" then that only matters if ones actions support the theory.

I disagree because we don't live in theory, we live in reality. Our actions have to have an impact on reality. Success is measured by outcomes, not by satisfaction at defining an abstract virtue.

Originally Posted by Hanna Sniper

The only way to beat discrimination is with forgivness, knowledge and understanding not by discrimination

I'll agree that knowledge and understanding are a component (forgiveness in terms of discrimination I don't really understand what that means, the ones doing the discriminating aren't usually doing it on purpose), but those aren't sufficient. We've seen it here, people know women are equal, would stand up and say they fully support equality, yet still unwittingly say and do things that marginalize women. The problem of discrimination in society is systemic.

Eduction isn't going to bring about equality by itself, at least not fast enough. The harm caused by waiting 10 generations for things to even out (if that's even possible and I'd have to be convinced it is) far outweighs the harm of short term affirmative action.

Originally Posted by Hanna Sniper

I really don't see anywhere in our profile that states my sex/race and it should remain that way

What's that got to do with anything?

[photon]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

And yet...

I was wondering how long till you showed up.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by photon

I was wondering how long till you showed up.

That almost feels like contempt for the greatest decision you've ever made

It was only be the sheer luck of a mis-scroll. Normally I don't go down this far.

[Hanna Sniper]

You can break down my post line by line photon attempting to pick it a part by removing the context. Not really something that I think is very productive as it puts things in a offensive/defensive position. There's zero need to be like that or play that game

Do you really believe that someone that has the views and perspective that I'm saying is one that needs to read up on affirmative action... not once but you've said it twice now. I'm not the one standing on the side of the line that supports discrimination.

Seriously, I'm the bad guy. Because I don't care what a person's sex or race is and accept them for who there are. Crap! god forbid I speak up. Keep on using discrimination when it's political correct at the time and shoot down anyone calling a cigar a cigar

"What's that got to do with anything? "
Sex and race should have zero to do about anything is my point if you really think discrimination in any form is the way to create diversity then that road is going to be an even longer one. You/We/Us can put on that nice politically correct skin but until we start to change the people inside ourselves and our actions things will never be where it can

But seriously, how the hell am I the enemy

[Hanna Sniper]

To answer the question
"That's my point. It's already been said, the question is how to do it. "

Whatever the need is, then seek out the member that has that in bunches and ask them to be a part of your team... Don't inquire about their sex or race. that should never be a subject of the decision. To avoid race and sex I'll use music as an example... If you wanted musical viewpoint then odds are the person you choose does end up being a musician or music lover but never should the process be musicians only.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Hanna Sniper

You can break down my post line by line photon attempting to pick it a part by removing the context. Not really something that I think is very productive as it puts things in a offensive/defensive position. There's zero need to be like that or play that game

?? It's not a game, it's a discussion. You're making statements and claims and asking questions, I'm responding with statements and claims and asking questions. Your post makes more than a single point, why is it a game or offensive to try to talk about each point?

Otherwise I don't understand what am I supposed to do, what you expect me to do? Ignore everything you said and only pick one thing you said and reply to that? You took the time to write the points it only seems respectful to reply to them rather than pass over them.

Originally Posted by Hanna Sniper

Do you really believe that someone that has the views and perspective that I'm saying is one that needs to read up on affirmative action... not once but you've said it twice now. I'm not the one standing on the side of the line that supports discrimination.

My beliefs are irrelevant, I'm replying to what you are saying. You said you were boggled about using discrimination to fight discrimination. I suggested a way to get unboggled. Then you wondered that "your actions show that you feel discrimination is that way to achieve it" which basically ignores the point of affirmative action and reiterates your boggledness, so I reiterated the suggestion. Based on what you wrote I did not get the information that you know what affirmative action is. If you did know, then replying why affirmative action is bad (when it's been effective to some degree) would have communicated that. Again I can only go by what you say.

Originally Posted by Hanna Sniper

Seriously, I'm the bad guy. Because I don't care what a person's sex or race is and accept them for who there are. Crap! god forbid I speak up. Keep on using discrimination when it's political correct at the time and shoot down anyone calling a cigar a cigar

Who called you a bad guy? I'm disagreeing with you in that affirmative action type action is necessary to promote equality. Who forbade you to speak up? Having a discussion where someone disagrees with you means they want to understand you, it means they want you to speak up, not forbid you to speak up. Disagreeing with you isn't shooting you down.

If you don't want someone to disagree with you or try and discuss it in more detail then just say so.

Originally Posted by Hanna Sniper

Sex and race should have zero to do about anything is my point if you really think discrimination in any form is the way to create diversity then that road is going to be an even longer one.

Ah ok, you mentioned your profile and I didn't understand how us gathering info related. I agree that sex and race et al should not have anything to do with anything. But.. And I'm hesitant now because you seem upset but I've said nothing to say you are the bad guy or that you should be quiet, and my intent is not to silence you or insult you, I am discussing your points, not you. So But.. I disagree that it will make the road a longer one, because again the results show that affirmative action can result in better outcomes than not having it, which makes a shorter road.

Originally Posted by Hanna Sniper

You/We/Us can put on that nice politically correct skin but until we start to change the people inside ourselves and our actions things will never be where it can

Of course, and the two things aren't mutually exclusive. Affirmative action tries to change all the people by having women or minorities or queers in places where they had previously been discriminated against. That seems a pretty positive way to get people changing their insides.

Originally Posted by Hanna Sniper

But seriously, how the hell am I the enemy

Seriously, please point out where I called you an enemy? In a discussion the only enemy is miscommunication.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Hanna Sniper

To answer the question
"That's my point. It's already been said, the question is how to do it. "

Whatever the need is, then seek out the member that has that in bunches and ask them to be a part of your team... Don't inquire about their sex or race.

Fair enough. In terms of the forum, that is fine and really does reflect how we approach things. The only factor is a really basic one in that if we are going to formalize some guidelines with respect to women, I'd be uncomfortable speaking to how a woman might see something without actually talking to a woman. I see far too many men tell women what they feel, which is something I want to avoid. So regardless of who if anyone becomes moderators, I'd still feel more comfortable with input in some form from some women.

Just like if I wanted a musical viewpoint, while it might not be necessary to have a musician to get those viewpoints, if I'm ignorant of music it probably is necessary to get a musician's input on if someone's viewpoints are valid in that context. If I'm ignorant of something, I don't know what I don't know so I can't differentiate between good and bad of something. Going to someone who does know (or has a better chance of knowing) can still be important.

[Hanna Sniper]

Maybe it's just my own failure but rarely in a discussion do you break down every line of someones response and reply solely on that line. Taking a post out of context and detailing it line by line can change the message someone was trying to convey. It's understandable that someone would take that with a defensive response as it comes of a ticks on a chalkboard trying keep score. Obviously I read in a manner you didn't intend... but of course you did it again, hopefully not again so I know you are sincere.

The whole affirmative action point you keep bringing up makes no sense. I don't understand why that point being addressed to me for a third time. And here;s why

If I was an employer in the position to hand out 100 jobs to employees. I could guarantee I wouldn't be hitting the bare minimum in regards of minorities. Having this mindset and action is what should be enforced rather then affirmative action. Here's why, affirmative action helps placing individuals in positions that they should have had the opportunity in the first place (which is good). But forcing someone to only reach the bare minimum doesn't mean you are bettering the situation it only means you are covering it with a nice fresh coat of paint. Where this fails is that it discriminates in the attempt equalize... you don't solve the real issue you just allow it to exist under guidelines. You can't eliminate discrimination but teaching how to discriminate by quota

The bad guy stance comes from be felt that I have been put in a defensive position promoting equality. rubecube's post and the dissecting of my post from you indeed made me feel my back was to the wall and understandable the "bad guy" It just reinforces the idea that i've had to take a defensive position.

I get from the responses that what I am saying is correct but that isn't how the real world works. And my answer to that is you can't change the real world but you can change yourself. Allow your actions speak for yourself and if you believe you can stop discrimination then do so without discriminating, Meeting the bare minimum of affirmative action is not something to aspire to be or be proud about

Here's the thing, our goal is very much the same with the only difference being one view forces others to be accepting and the other view expects yourself to be accepting. No sense waiting for others to change if you're not willing to change yourself. Meeting the bare requirements isn't a measure of success or change but rather more how far away it really is

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Hanna Sniper

Maybe it's just my own failure but rarely in a discussion do you break down every line of someones response and reply solely on that line. Taking a post out of context and detailing it line by line can change the message someone was trying to convey. It's understandable that someone would take that with a defensive response as it comes of a ticks on a chalkboard trying keep score. Obviously I read in a manner you didn't intend... but of course you did it again, hopefully not again so I know you are sincere.

The whole affirmative action point you keep bringing up makes no sense. I don't understand why that point being addressed to me for a third time. And here;s why

If I was an employer in the position to hand out 100 jobs to employees. I could guarantee I wouldn't be hitting the bare minimum in regards of minorities. Having this mindset and action is what should be enforced rather then affirmative action. Here's why, affirmative action helps placing individuals in positions that they should have had the opportunity in the first place (which is good). But forcing someone to only reach the bare minimum doesn't mean you are bettering the situation it only means you are covering it with a nice fresh coat of paint. Where this fails is that it discriminates in the attempt equalize... you don't solve the real issue you just allow it to exist under guidelines. You can't eliminate discrimination but teaching how to discriminate by quota

The bad guy stance comes from be felt that I have been put in a defensive position promoting equality. rubecube's post and the dissecting of my post from you indeed made me feel my back was to the wall and understandable the "bad guy" It just reinforces the idea that i've had to take a defensive position.

I get from the responses that what I am saying is correct but that isn't how the real world works. And my answer to that is you can't change the real world but you can change yourself. Allow your actions speak for yourself and if you believe you can stop discrimination then do so without discriminating, Meeting the bare minimum of affirmative action is not something to aspire to be or be proud about

Here's the thing, our goal is very much the same with the only difference being one view forces others to be accepting and the other view expects yourself to be accepting. No sense waiting for others to change if you're not willing to change yourself. Meeting the bare requirements isn't a measure of success or change but rather more how far away it really is

I think the point you might be missing is that it's all well and good for us to want to change ourselves, but we represent a very, small and uninfluential portion of a larger society in which systemic discrimination and ineqaulity is a very large problem. My own actions and beliefs are not going to change the actions and beliefs of society at large enough to tackle these issues. I agree with you to a certain extent that affirmative action allows people to only meet the bare the minimum, but that's certainly better than allowing them to just blatantly discriminate against anyone with no baseline, is it not?

If you want to call it discrimination, so be it, but I don't really see it that way. I think there needs to be means in which groups that have historically been at a disadvantage and continue to be disadvantaged due to historical and current systemic inequalities that still give white men advantages over other groups just by virtue of being born as white men. Stating that is not discrimination, it's an accurate assessment of the world we live in. We're talking about lived experiences here, and if you or I say that we don't want to discriminate, it doesn't change the obstacles and challenges that these people face on a daily basis.

I apologize if what I said before sounded like I was attacking you. That wasn't my intent, but the way you just brushed off my argument by saying "It's sad when some people just don't get it," wasn't exactly constructive discourse.

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by flameswin

Beyond what Rube and MMF already pointed out; How do you think people become mods without asking to be one or expressing interest?

Do you think they just send a PM to good posters and say "Hey bud, you're a mod now. Yeah, no I don't care how busy you are.........shhh, just stop talking, I'm making you a mod, so start moderating or I'll ban you".

Yes.

In my experience a staff member would pm someone who they think would make a good mod and see if they are interested. Many times a person will first be made a monitor (if they have those here) or be given limited mod powers at first and then graduate to more powers over time.

[Hanna Sniper]

I understand 100% the point you believe I am missing rubecube. The only difference is you've justified where is ok and just to discriminate. It's that logic, the part of the brain that says in this case it ok, I wouldn't really call it discrimination, is the seed that is the problem. If we can't eliminated that one seed from those that we are fighting with to defend how can we ever prevail

If the person that has been discriminated against can't rise above and led the way then who will. It has to be let go from your heart first until then it will only be a bandaid solution with no real change. On a side note I understand that there will always be those that have been discriminated against so much that forgiveness isn't an option

[CKPThunder]

How do the mod's know a user's gender/race/orientation? If how they choose mod's is like what Jacks said earlier, then it would be sort of sad if they chose someone because they knew this user was a woman and think she would be an adequate mod but passed over someone who they thought more highly of and have it turn out that that user was also a female. Wow, that a crappy sentence. My apologies.

Also, why is the direction moving towards looking for a woman mod when the OP was asking for diversity? Why isn't there any discussion on finding a non-white/ethnic or a gay mod? I don't know of any direct numbers but if I had to speculate, I would think that non-white or possibly the gay users on this forum would out number the women users. Should that be taken into account? The size of a group?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Hanna Sniper

I understand 100% the point you believe I am missing rubecube. The only difference is you've justified where is ok and just to discriminate. It's that logic, the part of the brain that says in this case it ok, I wouldn't really call it discrimination, is the seed that is the problem. If we can't eliminated that one seed from those that we are fighting with to defend how can we ever prevail

If the person that has been discriminated against can't rise above and led the way then who will. It has to be let go from your heart first until then it will only be a bandaid solution with no real change. On a side note I understand that there will always be those that have been discriminated against so much that forgiveness isn't an option

Maybe I am missing your point, so let me try and clarify it. You're arguing that someone who's being discriminated against should just immediately rise above it and move on, and that's how discrimination will end? That doesn't make any sense to me. So a black guy who gets denied service at a restaurant just says "That's okay I forgive you," and somehow the owner of the restaurant suddenly sees the error of his ways and immediately stops being racist?

To me your argument sounds like it is based on the premise that discrimination is no longer an active force in the lives of minorities, and that most of their disputes revolve around residual bitterness. Or am I reading you incorrectly?

[Hanna Sniper]

No you are reading me incorrectly rubecube,

[Antithesis]

Originally Posted by Hanna Sniper

Whatever the need is, then seek out the member that has that in bunches and ask them to be a part of your team... Don't inquire about their sex or race. that should never be a subject of the decision. To avoid race and sex I'll use music as an example... If you wanted musical viewpoint then odds are the person you choose does end up being a musician or music lover but never should the process be musicians only.

I don't believe anyone is advocating for diversity in the moderation team out of a desire to discriminate or 'even things out', so to speak. I don't think the suggestion is to artificially raise the profile of under-represented groups by 'promoting' them to the mod team (I'd expect some of the mods might argue such a change can't always be considered a promotion!). At minimum, I know that is not what I am suggesting.

I don't mean to put words in anyone's mouths, but I think what rubecube, Photon and myself are suggesting is to bring the voices and experiences of these under-represented groups to the mod group, and secondarily to formalize our commitment to equality as a community. It is my personal belief that, as a white male, I am simply unable to fully empathize with the experiences of some of the groups brought up in this thread. Since I am not a woman, I can not view things from a woman's perspective. I may think my own actions are free of any sort of hint of discriminatory ideas, but I am arriving at this conclusion from a male's perspective. The input of these under-represented groups is vital, in my opinion, and is something we should actively be seeking out.

[Hanna Sniper]

Antithesis. How would I know that you were a white male if you didn't tell me, I don't see it in your profile. If you didn't I would have to look at your post and make assumptions... eventually through the way you communicate and the views you share I may make the conclusion you are this gender or that gender and the perspective you bring.

THIS is my point and the topic at hand, never mind anything else said because it's beaten and a dead horse. It's said and one can just re-read it

But there is one thing I would like to make clear

If I was asked by Photon for a suggest for a Mod because they were looking to add a woman's perspective to add to their team.... it would be easy for my to come up with at least one name. There's a member of our community that I think fills the role to perfection and done so for years. The type of post this member has posted and represented themselves is exactly what the mod team would be looking. Would this member bring a woman's perspective like I was asked for? Yes. Is this member a woman? That really isn't my business but reading this members post for 12 years I do know in fact she is.

Adding a woman doesn't necessarily mean you bring a woman perspective nor does saying when I speak I bring Antithesis perspective. Adding the perspective is key, disregarding worthily candidate because of their gender is wrong. Since there is nothing in our profile that distinguishes if a member gender/race then it should be their post that represented their perspective

As a member of CP that is in minority, I don't care if my Mod has a vagina, or is purple, or is Mexican. All I care is if they know right from wrong. To know what is acceptable or not. Every user is going to have issues with something. As users, we need to know when something "crosses the line" and report it. I have faith in the guys that run the board to control what may be harassment or discriminatory. Morals don't change within race/gender/sexual orientation.
Don't try to fix something that isn't broken.

[Senator Clay Davis]

A moderator on an internet discussion board is, how shall I put this....not exactly the most desirable thing to do to the average person. So I'm grateful, regardless of gender, of those who choose to volunteer their time to the community and put up with the kind of crap that can go on here (or on any board).

So while I suppose it'd be nice to have say a very diverse mix of mods, realistically getting good mods, regardless of gender, is a pretty hard thing to do. This board is about as well moderated as any board I've been on. Little to no complaints, even when I got sin binned I knew I totally deserved it.