Is this price-fixing or not?

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Wow, you can't compare the two.



Let me know how it goes next time you order you Big Mac Combo, and you try to offer list less 5%?



I seem to recall that dealerships, really make their money on the servicing of vehicles, but I could be wrong.

Err, I didn't mean it in that context. I was more discussing this part via paralleling the idea that franchises are also separately owned and managed:

dealerships are generally separately owned and managed, and compete with each other for business

I wasn't thinking about the separate services offered by the dealerships. As such, I concede my example was inadequate and poor.

[Gundo]

Originally Posted by Young-Sneezy

scanned this whole thread to find out the type of car.

left disappointed.

What he said

[TheGrimm]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

The idea of "Resale Price Maintenance" was redefined in 2009 and shifted from a criminal to a civil offense.

But even then, as stated, as long as there is competition then there isn't really any offense.

You can buy a car/tablet/watch/whatever from someone else. There is no right that you should be able to get that specific model at a specific price.

And if it is a brand new, low supply model, I can't imagine getting a deal on it.

I think the issue here all arises from a salesman saying there is an agreement to not cut the price. I doubt a salesman would have that sort insider knowledge. It sounds to me like he is trying to prevent you from asking and potentially buying from someone else - he wants the sale.

Don't get me wrong, I would like to pay less than MSRP and that kind of bugs me. But the part I'm really having problems with is the inference by the salesperson that there was some kind of consortium that went on wherein all the dealers (not sure to what extent was implied) got together and decided that they were not going to sell under MSRP or provide incentives.

Like I said, how can they embrace competition in one market and conclude that they aren't competitors in another market and this be OK from a legal perspective.

I was able to verify that people in other parts of the country have gotten discounts, so obviously this hasn't been mandated from VW Canada.

[DownhillGoat]

Originally Posted by TheGrimm

I was able to verify that people in other parts of the country have gotten discounts, so obviously this hasn't been mandated from VW Canada.

It is the GTI!

[Ducay]

Sounds like Audi to me. Insane demand for many models, tight supply, and both Calgary dealerships owned by same group. Basically zero wiggle room for real savings (you can get free stuff thrown in, mats, oil changes, but you'll never get a good "deal"). As well, fixed doc/admin fees that are insanely high for the industry, all with little negotiability since they know they have the market cornered.

I had to go to the southern US to get a good deal as economic climate down there is much softer, and they're just looking for any sale to get fresh allotments of stock.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by ken0042

I think an analogy that we are all better familiar with is Apple products. Take something like an iPad- everybody sells it for the same price. That is because Apple makes it a condition of being an Apple reseller that there is only one price you can charge. Occasionally you will see that iPad on sale; and you will also see that other stores are running some similar kind of sale. It isn't Best Buy that is fixing the price with Target; it is Apple telling it's resellers what price they can charge.

Right. My understanding of the law is that apple can set a fixed price for its products, and all of the dealers can either abide by it or choose not to sell the products. If Ford set a fixed price and said everyone has to sell at this price or lose the right to sell the vehicle, that would be legal, I believe.

However, it wouldn't be legal for Best Buy/Visions/Source to get together and say "we're all going to sell the new Samsung 50 inch TV for $X." That's collusion between competitors.

Similarly, I think if the car dealerships all get together to set a price, I believe that's collusion.

Anyway, I'm not a lawyer or anything, but I will ask my buddy who worked at the competition bureau the next time I see him.

[calgarywinning]

Wanna talk about price fixing? Let's talk about the banks/banks & credit cards. That's a government authorized racket in the fixing of prices for certain.

[TheGrimm]

Originally Posted by kunkstyle

It is the GTI!

Well now that I let the cat out by accident... I am not sure if all VW dealers in town are owned by the same group as well?

[Table 5]

Have you considered that the salesman might also just have been lying to get you to buy with him?

[photon]

Originally Posted by TheGrimm

But then you said that they are not competitors when it comes to setting a "minimum price" which is the part I am disagreeing with. How can they be considered competitors when it comes to a buyers market, but as soon as the tide tips in their favor they are able to state that they aren't in competition with each other so the laws don't apply?

So which is it?

It seems clear to me, legally they aren't competitors. If they choose to act like competators when it suits them there's nothing wrong with that, because the law doesn't dictate how they must act, just restricts certain actions.

Legally I'm not an airplane. I can choose to act like one if I want, but just because I'm not legally an airplane doesn't mean the law dictates I can't act like an airplane.

Originally Posted by TheGrimm

But the part I'm really having problems with is the inference by the salesperson that there was some kind of consortium that went on wherein all the dealers (not sure to what extent was implied) got together and decided that they were not going to sell under MSRP or provide incentives.

Why is it a problem? You still have choice. Sure it's more fun to be in the position of power when in a negotiation, but that can't always be the case. To have a problem with someone else having leverage in a negotiation while being fine when you have the leverage isn't very reasonable.

Originally Posted by TheGrimm

Like I said, how can they embrace competition in one market and conclude that they aren't competitors in another market and this be OK from a legal perspective.

Because legal definitions don't dictate their behaviours absolutely, they just dictate what restrictions apply and when. If the restrictions don't apply, then their actions will be whatever combination of things results in the greatest benefit to themselves. Most of the time they think that's competition.

Originally Posted by TheGrimm

I was able to verify that people in other parts of the country have gotten discounts, so obviously this hasn't been mandated from VW Canada.

It'd be no different than a group of sales people at a store at Christmas saying they had an agreement to not discount from their commissions to get a sale, they can't compete for customers based on price, but they all get full commissions.

[karl262]

Originally Posted by TheGrimm

Well now that I let the cat out by accident... I am not sure if all VW dealers in town are owned by the same group as well?

Nope, not owned by the same group. It's unlikely they were going to offer any types of discounts on the new GTI anyways. If you like the car, buy it and be happy that they at least didn't go $5k over MSRP and call it a "market adjustment". Also, if the demand is high for a car it will also help you on resale value, so consider the total cost of ownership.

The new GTI looks badass, so why complain over not getting what is usually only a 1-2k discount on some other similarly priced car? Unless there are big manufacturer rebates, profit margins are a lot slimmer than most people think in this price range.

Buy the car.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by fotze

Is that true? I've always felt certain Safeway location in the city had different pricing.

I have always noticed that grocery stores are pretty careful about stuff like that and when prices do differ from another store of the same chain, they put up a sign saying "This store only".

[Dion]

Originally Posted by fotze

Is that true? I've always felt certain Safeway location in the city had different pricing.

Not allowed to do that. Safeway was caught IIRC during the 70's doing predatory pricing and got their hands severly slapped.

[Hack&Lube]

PM Pylon or Sopure. Maybe they can give you more information or assist. They are in VW sales. They may just tell you the same thing.

[puffnstuff]

FYI...Two of the VW dealers in town are owned by the same group, the third is a different group (which I believe is where Pylon plies his trade).

I should add that dealers compete with each other for allocation of vehicles from the manufacturer. How many of the scarce vehicles they get allocated can depend on a number of performance metrics (sales numbers, csi numbers, etc) And yes, different markets across the country will get different pricing guidelines from the manufacturer, based on market conditions, such as demand.

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by redforever

I have always noticed that grocery stores are pretty careful about stuff like that and when prices do differ from another store of the same chain, they put up a sign saying "This store only".

I've noticed that produce ranges in prices for produce in Superstores. Huntington, Panorama, Signal Hill and Country Hills all have similar prices, but on occasion, you'll see (for instance, Gala Apples) going for up to 20%+ higher at a different location than the others(ie: $0.99 vs $1.23). I didn't notice too many pricing differences at Co-op stores, Safeway did vary I recall (Don't go regularly enough to compare prices) and T&T on occasion would sell for 1-2 cent differences for the same product between the two locations. It's highly bizarre.

[pylon]

When a new model comes out, it is normal for a dealer to not offer a discount until the initial supply and demand is satisfied, and there is a surplus of inventory. There are certain models we have had where we will never discount the car, even for staff, the most recent being the Golf R.

This is no different than a new Apple iPhone, a new hot in demand device... whatever. Why would a car dealer discount a car for you, if there are 10 guys in line behind you with a deposit willing to pay full retail. However, if you had agreed to a price with a discount before hand and it is in writing, then absolutely the dealer should honor that.

If you are dealing with our dealership, send me a PM, and I will look into your file.

[Northendzone]

i find it hard to beleive that on a specific day that apples in one superstore are going for $1.00 and on the exact same day the same kind of apple is $1.20 at another superstore......are you sure you were in both superstores on the same day?

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by Northendzone

i find it hard to beleive that on a specific day that apples in one superstore are going for $1.00 and on the exact same day the same kind of apple is $1.20 at another superstore......are you sure you were in both superstores on the same day?

Yes I was in both stores on the same day. It was Huntington vs Country Hills late last year. I was surprised there was a difference, I thought such a thing was not allowed.

I have no idea if last years renovations at Country Hills was a factor in this, but I don't think it should have affected it.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Northendzone

i find it hard to beleive that on a specific day that apples in one superstore are going for $1.00 and on the exact same day the same kind of apple is $1.20 at another superstore......are you sure you were in both superstores on the same day?

Wouldn't surprise me if one just forgot to change the sign. Their prices are very regularly not correctly marked.