Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

Go Back   Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community > Main Forums > The Off Topic Forum
Register Forum Rules FAQ Community Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 02-10-2014, 12:15 PM   #41
NuclearPizzaMan
Crash and Bang Winger
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rathji View Post
Is that better or worse than someone who wastes money on iPads, Steam sales, and Candy Crush in-game purchases?
Worse, I'd say.
NuclearPizzaMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2014, 12:17 PM   #42
Itse
Franchise Player
 
Itse's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch View Post
I kinda disagree with this, you'd still need exception based social programs.
That's why I said "supposedly". I don't necessarily trust those calculations.

Quote:
I would probably end up in the same earning bracket as I am now
That would be intentional. For most working people, their taxes would go up the same as they get from the government, making it a wash. This is a main reason why the program isn't as expensive as it sounds at first.

The idea is not to give everybody more money. The idea is to take a new approach to the way social benefits system works, essentially.

Quote:
I would need to see how it would be implemented and how the so called savings in terms of different social programs and things like law enforcement would be executed and budgeted.
There are places that have already tried it and generally it seems the systems have been doing okay at worst. However, the experiments have been small in scale and often in countries that compare poorly to a country like Canada or Finland, like Namibia, India or Iran.

Check out mincome from wikipedia, that experiment was done in Canada in the seventies.
Itse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2014, 12:19 PM   #43
Locke
Franchise Player
 
Locke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Income Tax Central
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AcGold View Post
Well if they were taxed equally everywhere they'd have nowhere to run to.
Yeah, but unfortunately theres just no way to moderate or legislate that. In the case of France much of their financial elite just moved to Belgium who will happily take them in and cut them breaks because something is better than nothing.
__________________
The Beatings Shall Continue Until Morale Improves!

This Post Has Been Distilled for the Eradication of Seemingly Incurable Sadness.

The World Ends when you're dead. Until then, you've got more punishment in store. - Flames Fans

If you thought this season would have a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention.
Locke is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2014, 12:36 PM   #44
GGG
Franchise Player
 
GGG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: California
Exp:
Default

I like the concept of a basic benefit that diminishes as you earn more money that eliminates a lot of the beuracracy of other progams. The biggest benefit of this is that instead of programs trying to target areas of need you have individuals spending money where they need it.

I think that people need to get over the idea that this program will only give people more money to waste on booze and alchohol. This generally is false. Poor people aren't poor because they are drug addicts or alchoholics. Most poor people are hard working people that you don't see. We need to accept that no matter what type of program we implement it will be abused by the alchoholics and drug addicts. That is okay as it costs more to prevent this abuse than it saves. So we should just write off the abuse money as part of cost of delivery and ignore it. Focus only on the cost to benefit ratio of the people you are trying to help: Children growing up in poor families.
GGG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2014, 12:59 PM   #45
Fire
Franchise Player
 
Fire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Calgary, AB
Exp:
Default

It would make more sense to raise the personal exemption amount so citizens don't have to pay taxes on the first $18000 of earnings. It would encourage people to take the crappy jobs instead of staying home and watching TV all day.
__________________

Fire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2014, 01:10 PM   #46
CaptainCrunch
Norm!
 
CaptainCrunch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire View Post
It would make more sense to raise the personal exemption amount so citizens don't have to pay taxes on the first $18000 of earnings. It would encourage people to take the crappy jobs instead of staying home and watching TV all day.
I would guess then that the smart thing would be to bump tax rates on anything over 18k if I'm reading you right
CaptainCrunch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2014, 01:28 PM   #47
flamesfan6
First Line Centre
 
flamesfan6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Victoria
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rathji View Post
Is that better or worse than someone who wastes money on iPads, Steam sales, and Candy Crush in-game purchases?
i'd say worse because ipads, steam sales, candy crush don't lead to liver disease and other health problems as alcohol and drugs do.
flamesfan6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2014, 01:33 PM   #48
AcGold
Self-Suspension
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by flamesfan6 View Post
i'd say worse because ipads, steam sales, candy crush don't lead to liver disease and other health problems as alcohol and drugs do.
well they do cause health problems if abused so it's not completely erroneous.
AcGold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2014, 01:38 PM   #49
jonesy
First Line Centre
 
jonesy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Niceland
Exp:
Default

oops, i meant to quote Rathji, not thank him. Well i wanted to thank him for the candy crush part. my wife and all her sisters are addicted to candy crush
__________________
When in danger or in doubt, run in circles scream and shout.
jonesy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2014, 01:57 PM   #50
crazy_eoj
Powerplay Quarterback
 
crazy_eoj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire View Post
It would make more sense to raise the personal exemption amount so citizens don't have to pay taxes on the first $18000 of earnings. It would encourage people to take the crappy jobs instead of staying home and watching TV all day.
That was my first thought as well.... should be the simplest solution wouldn't it?

Even with a 'duplicate' program of assured income for unemployed/unable to work it would be way less administration than paying out EVERYONE?
crazy_eoj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2014, 01:58 PM   #51
Flames0910
First Line Centre
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azure View Post
I still think it should be dependent on results. If you want an apartment, you can have it, as long as you start becoming a 'stable' member of society. Simply passing on a house, or money, or anything else to people isn't going to work.

There are a variety of different ways to do this. I'm open to anything.

Find 500 people who live in poverty and try something new.
That was the original study. They just gave 3,000 pounds to thirteen of the homeless in London. The finding was that people had a better sense of how to spend the money than any kind of top-down program. A year after the program had completed, 11 of the 13 had a roof over their heads. They found it to be seven times more effective than traditional social programs. Here's the link: https://decorrespondent.nl/541/why-w...98745-cb9fbb39
Flames0910 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2014, 01:59 PM   #52
CaptainCrunch
Norm!
 
CaptainCrunch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy_eoj View Post
That was my first thought as well.... should be the simplest solution wouldn't it?

Even with a 'duplicate' program of assured income for unemployed/unable to work it would be way less administration than paying out EVERYONE?
But isn't that already in place with unemployment and welfare, which are also to both be temporary programs?
CaptainCrunch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2014, 02:04 PM   #53
Hemi-Cuda
wins 10 internets
 
Hemi-Cuda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: slightly to the left
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azure View Post
I still think it should be dependent on results. If you want an apartment, you can have it, as long as you start becoming a 'stable' member of society. Simply passing on a house, or money, or anything else to people isn't going to work.

There are a variety of different ways to do this. I'm open to anything.

Find 500 people who live in poverty and try something new.
There was someone on reddit who spoke about being homeless and how hard it is to work you way out of it. It's incredibly difficult to become that stable member of society when you can't get an apartment without income, you can't get a job without a bank account, and you can't get a bank account without a fixed address

http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview...oor_to/cfb0dxu

How many people do you think are out there that could have become a valuable member of society, but ended up making some poor choices and ultimately gave up after they were unable to fix those mistakes?
Hemi-Cuda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2014, 02:06 PM   #54
Hack&Lube
Atomic Nerd
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda View Post
There was someone on reddit who spoke about being homeless and how hard it is to work you way out of it. It's incredibly difficult to become that stable member of society when you can't get an apartment without income, you can't get a job without a bank account, and you can't get a bank account without a fixed address

http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview...oor_to/cfb0dxu

How many people do you think are out there that could have become a valuable member of society, but ended up making some poor choices and ultimately gave up after they were unable to fix those mistakes?
IIRC, one of the homeless on Reddit received help from a social program and is now doing a graduate degree in science.
Hack&Lube is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2014, 02:18 PM   #55
Hemi-Cuda
wins 10 internets
 
Hemi-Cuda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: slightly to the left
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hack&Lube View Post
IIRC, one of the homeless on Reddit received help from a social program and is now doing a graduate degree in science.
Exactly, which is why I think something like a guaranteed income would be better than a huge jumble of social assistance programs with different rules, regulation, and hoops to jump through. That person posted in the same thread I linked and is one of the lucky ones. How many more are there who weren't as lucky, who might have been saved with a basic income program?

Quote:
I was approved for Social Security Disability. Within six months, I was living indoors, and enrolled in community college with a 4.0 taking 19 credit hours. I'm currently finishing my graduate degree (science).
Could never have escaped the streets without SSD. There's just way too much bull#### that thwarted my best efforts. Despite years of hard work and continuously trying, there were too many setbacks, #######s, and fiery hoops to jump though.
I would have died under a bridge if I hadn't gotten SSD.
Hemi-Cuda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2014, 02:20 PM   #56
CaptainCrunch
Norm!
 
CaptainCrunch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Exp:
Default

But what she got isn't really any different then a standard social program. These things are basically available now.

Are they perfect? No, but i don't think we need to spend the money on a whole new program when we should have ones that service specific sectors of the population (welfare, UI, Disability, Pension.
CaptainCrunch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2014, 04:16 PM   #57
Azure
Had an idea!
 
Azure's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Exp:
Default

So what exactly is Social Security Disability?

I'm still not sure what social programs would be dissolved and folded into this lump sum check or month stipend that people will get.

I mean I'm fine with finding a more efficient way to deliver welfare programs to the needy, but I'm not seeing what exactly would be different here. Isn't disability pay just that? A cheque from the government based on meeting certain 'requirements?' How would that change if we combine stuff together?
Azure is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2014, 04:23 PM   #58
Flash Walken
Lifetime Suspension
 
Flash Walken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: The Void between Darkness and Light
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch View Post
But what she got isn't really any different then a standard social program. These things are basically available now.

Are they perfect? No, but i don't think we need to spend the money on a whole new program when we should have ones that service specific sectors of the population (welfare, UI, Disability, Pension.
Maybe the new program is more better than the imperfect model that currently is inefficient?

Not to sound too callous here, but it's next to impossible to access many of these programs while dealing with the issues that make one eligible to access them in the first place. I think it's easy to say these programs are in place and should work, but, when was the last time you were homeless and tried to access them?

I've seen it first and second hand. Without an advocate or an organization advocating on your behalf, many of these are closed programs completely inaccessible to the people who need them the most.

The other aspect is that these programs are also woefully underfunded in the first place, especially for urban centres like Calgary, Toronto and Vancouver where the cost of living is exceptionally high.

Yes, it's anecdotal that that person has gone on to graduate studies and will likely become a highly paid (and thus highly taxed), contributing member of society, but I think you'd find that many of the people who cannot access these programs have similar abilities. With what we are finding out now about developmental disorders such as Autism, we as a society are cutting off our noses to spite our face by not taking a critical view of what the actual cost/benefit result is of the whole orientation of social programs.
Flash Walken is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Flash Walken For This Useful Post:
Old 02-10-2014, 04:55 PM   #59
Rathji
Franchise Player
 
Rathji's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Supporting Urban Sprawl
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NuclearPizzaMan View Post
Worse, I'd say.
So you would be okay with people blowing $100 on tapped out donuts, but not on pot?
__________________
"Wake up, Luigi! The only time plumbers sleep on the job is when we're working by the hour."
Rathji is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2014, 04:57 PM   #60
Rathji
Franchise Player
 
Rathji's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Supporting Urban Sprawl
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by flamesfan6 View Post
i'd say worse because ipads, steam sales, candy crush don't lead to liver disease and other health problems as alcohol and drugs do.
You could say that video game addiction would cause many health and social issues.
__________________
"Wake up, Luigi! The only time plumbers sleep on the job is when we're working by the hour."
Rathji is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:21 PM.

Calgary Flames
2024-25




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Calgarypuck 2021 | See Our Privacy Policy